Tuesday, February 07, 2006

 

Orochimaru Flinches but Never Flees

Originally Posted by Criminal:


Kill one of the greatest Hokages ever and you still dont get any respect......damn.
LOL. So true. What does a guy have to do? Experimenting on hundreds of people doesn't do it. Killing a world leader? Posh. Even posessing bodies to stay alive forever is just seen as a quirk. I guess the only way to be feared is to kill your whole family except your brother who then you brainwash into becoming your family's avenger. Too bad there aren't enough genius clains to go around.

Orochimaru would make a bad horror film villian. He just doesn't have the ick factor or ability to create a suspenseful atmosphere. One of the freakiest villians in film was Robert Michum's minister in Night of the Hunter. He's a normal man (other than the love/hate tattooed on his hands and his homicidal tendencies) but he stalks thses two kids through the south and every time you hear him whistle your blood boils.

Orochimaru isn't like that ... he is a villian of action who spends little time between attacks to build up dread. That said, Orochimaru is a good villian for an anime like Naruto. It is not supposed to be Sin City or Hitchcock. Gaara was more the pitiable psycho with the faulty mindset ... Orochimaru is crazy for sure but his problem is more about his goals. He seeks chaos (not validation) and wishes to prolong his life so he can enjoy that chaos for as long as possible. Orochimaru (like Voldemort and many other classic villians) is creepy because his villiany is for entertainment purposes. He's like the student who pours water into his ant farm. He isn't doing evil because he is mistakenly looking for greater purpose (e.g. Bleach's Aizen) or to test himself (like Itachi) but because when things are peaceful he's bored. His skills are sometimes predictably mundane (we got he's snakelike ... but what else can he do?) but he jump starts the plot better than anyone else - his character literally thrives by altering the plot - which is really what villians are for.

Just as a side note. The brilliance of Kishimoto is the varied types of villians he presents. One isn't better written than the next, just a different manifestation of evil. The secondary evil minions can be weak to say the least (and I'm not going to start with fillers and their apparent cookie cutter conveyor belt of token mimics of previous foes) but our main guys are diverse in skills, personalities, motivations, and psychoness. For example, unlike Orochimaru, the villian of action, Akatsuki specializes in sneaking, spying and waiting for the pieces to fall in predetermined places. Its the difference between a card counter who just waits for the opportune moment to bet big and the guy who can memorize where cards are in the deck and can manuver them so the dealer busts most of the time. And then you have the Gaaras (messed up past with an inner demon), the Hakus (messed up past with crappy loyalties), and the Kabutos (who the f**k knows but he keeps me guessing) to name the most used varieties ...

And all his villians have one other thing that makes them great - room to grow.
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Orochimaru didn't know Naruto would be there (he thought it would be Sasori) but he is too good thinking on his feet to not have a plan. His taunting is too controlled - much how it was against Sasuke during the chunin arc. he's doing something and it's not just being a smartass.

If he somehow can get close enough (which isn't a certainty), he can do the 5-point seal ... but I think he'll whip something else out. Jiraiya was able to analyse the situation of the seal but only after spending much time with Naruto and being partically mowed down by the 4-tail state. Orochimaru is sharp but I don't know if he can figure out it's weakening and hurts Naruto before seeing Naruto covered in his own blood .... I think he is taunting naruto precisely because he HASNT figured this out yet but is trying too - and the only way to gauge Naruto's powers, control and current limit is to force Naruto into going to the edge of his abilities ....

Naruto doesn't feel he needs to compete with Sasuke in the way he used to but he definitely feels a need to be stronger ... because that is the only way to save Sasuke. If Orochimaru is correct about their power difference then that means Naruto is farther from his goals - which is guarenteed to get to Naruto's emotions.

What other motivations might Orochimaru have?

Many think he is the 8-tailed Bijuu. Quite possibe but if Orochimaru were a Bijuu why in gods name would he want to recreate a person (the Shodai with Yamato) who could potentially control him?

The only way I can see it working at all is if the Bijuu instead was sealed or bound to Orochimaru's soul instead of his body ... and we just didn't see it cuz Sarotobi didn't get a chance to pull out enough of his soul! Perhaps, the further/longer he is away from his true body, the more his Bijuu takes control over Oro's soul, the reason why he's become nastier as time progressed. I know this is a larger leap, but maybe Bijuus all somehow influence their Jinchuuriki and how they warp them depends on where/how the sealing takes place. This might explain why he is so innately evil - it could be that like how Gaara was being warped mentally by Shukaku and how Naruto's chakra flow binds with Kyuubi's, Orochimaru's SOUL could've been likewise warped by HIS Bijuu, which unfortunately made Orochimaru just as twisted as his Bijuu.

Furthermore, Akatsuki seems a lot more Anti-Orochimaru because he deserted than Orochimaru seems Anti-Akatsuki. He wanted to kill Sasori because of the spying (and perhaps to protect Kabuto) not because they are full out enemies and he wants to stall Akasuki's plans; he just doesn't want them mettling with his own plans.

Origionally posted by Ifurita's Fan

Tsunade, Jiraiya and Orochimaru are from a japanese legend called The Gallant
Jiraiya... go google it... you'll see it actually exists. Jiraiya and Tsunade (yes.. she's a slug/snail magician in that too) get married and have Orochimaru. Anyway.. Orochi is a 8 tailed serpent that can control the rain... his element is the wind. In his tail was hidden the gras cutting sword... or more properly The Kusanagi sword. (not The Kusanagi... Kusanagi just means cutting grass it's not a name like Excaliber... it's more like the appealation of The singing sword. ) Anyway... The Orochi was killed when the Kusanagi sword (which gave it power over the storms) was broken and taken out of it's tail, but it was later mended don't know how)

Me... I think this is the deal... Oro is NOT a jinshuuriki in my opinion. Here's why.

1. Jinchuuriki must have the demon's sealed in them when they are very young... before their chakra paths form. Newborn is best. Adults die if the demons are sealed in them... Thats the rule

2. The third doesn't seem the type to tollerate that happening on his watch

3. If Oro had that sort of power at his disposal when he was a kid... along with his intellect... there'd be no way Tsunade or Jiraiya could have kept up with him... but they did. Therefore... he's not a jinchuuriki when he was younger.

In other words... too many reasons why he couldn't be one. Now that said... I think he's got access to part of the power of the orochi. Specifically here's what I think
happened.

1. He was tasked (while he was in the Akatsuki) with the recovery of the 8 tails... and it's sealing into something. He did it... but then left because he coveted that power.

2. He sealed the Orochi into the kusanagi sword (just like how Shukaku was sealed into a teakettle.

3.He's been learning how to use a part of the biijuu's power... to give him the edge he's been displaying lately. The thing is.. jinshuuriki all become physically transformed by the power they have when they use lots of it. Oros never shown that happening.


I don't think he is trying to start a war (between who? Konoha and Grass country? He didn't know Naruto and Company would show up! He's planning as he goes ...) but I do think he is trying to gain as much information about Jinchuuriki and Naruto as he can ... and he knows he'll get the most knowledge out of this fight by seeing how far Naruto can control his bijuu and the only way to do that is to force him to go to his extreme ...
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We don't know and never will know if Orochimaru could've killed Sasori like he planned to because Sasori commited suicide instead of showing the full lengths of his power ... Based ONLY on the jutsus we've seen Orochimaru wins due to his insane durability. We saw where Sasori was vunerable BECAUSE he let himself be stabbed there. We have yet to see Orochimaru's weak spot (other than having his soul ripped from him but that's old news by now and not gonna have a reoccurance) ... so we have no proof other than personal whims (and plot no jutsu) that Orochimaru even has one.
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The Chapter 293 events weren't exactly an attack aimed at Orochimaru like in the previous 2 chapters ... this was JUST a transformation. That line of blood sailing upwards was just freaky! Orochimaru is just lucky that all naruto did during this most reason chakra blast was transform again .... Orochimaru is actually lucky that Naruto loses his mind in 4-tail state cuz I don't think even Oro could handle it if Naruto wanted to only aim all this new power at him too ....And you Naruto is powerful when Orochimaru is impressed ... and having fun!

Firstly, If Orochimaru is injured so much that he can't just whip out another skin, he'll just have to suffer cuz he still can't transfer to Sasuke or another body for another 6 months. I think Orochimaru will be saved from the greatest harm solely because Naruto is no longer mentally in control and therefore he's just going to try to destroy everything, not just aim the attacks at Orochimaru. I am not saying 4-tail Naruto > Orochimaru - just that Orochimaru won't get the full brunt of the attack so we really won't know who's stronger.

Interest does not necessarily indicate being impressed but in Orochimaru's case I believe they go hand in hand. I don't think Orochimaru is ever interested unless he's impressed to atleast some degree. He doesn't necessarily need to be awed and wowed to be interested but if he isn't a little impressed then he just sees them as experiments, instruments in his plans or objects you don't even bother to fight. A snake plays with mice but never ducks down from one ...The difference is how he treats Naruto during the Chunin exam and before he sees Naruto Rasengan (with interest enough to toss him aside and not consider worth any effort to attack or bother to defend against) ... verses how he treats Naruto after he sees Rasengan, once Naruto throws him with one tail (with interest enough to attack him while he's down and taunt him but still not worth defensive action) ... verses how he treats after the 4-tailing (with interest and impressed enough to actually defend himself and no longer bother to taunt) .

Originally Posted by Yassy:



Making no attempts to flee? his face was filled with fear while trying to run away from the upset Naruto.The reason why he didn't flee after seeing Naruto powering up, was to test him, and he did, and now he knows what he is in for.

Oro flinches but he never flees.

CHAPTER 291: 1-tail Naruto throws Oro 1/2 mile by his face which proceeds to rip off and Orochimaru COMES BACK to taunt some more.

CHAPTER 292: After 3-tail Naruto destroys the bridge, Naruto (accidentally) punches Orochimaru with his chakra claw all that way into the forest when he is trying to grab onto something so he doesn't fall into the void. Naruto immediately follows Orochimaru into the forest where he aims the explosion at Orochimaru that causes Orochimaru to lose an arm. A wounded orochimaru leaps aside onto a tree branch but DOES NOT FLEE. Instead, Orochimaru stands over Naruto, continuing to taunt Naruto as he sheads his wounded body for a new unharmed one.

CHAPTER 293: Orochimaru is alarmed by the 4th tail appearing but DOES NOT FLEE when he sees Naruto belly over in pain. Soon Naruto is sheading his own skin and has the blood line reaching up into the sky. Orochimaru watches all this in concerned curiosity ("This feeling is different than before") from his tree branch while still standing in his old skin. Then Naruto yells out in pain ... and the blood line collapses. The energy of this explodes outwards as Naruto transforms. Orochimaru only has time to prostrate himself on the ground with his tongue sticking out. "How interesting ... really ... this child ..." This time he is finally NOT taunting Naruto.

Originally Posted by Yassy:

I hope your not expecting Orochimaru to run away after that punch alone, because I for sure did not. He came back indeed, he seems to be intrested in how Naruto has grown. Orochimaru was not in the forest at that time, Naruto was still facing him, after the explosion happened Orochimaru fell back, Naruto followed. Later on, Orochomaru leaning on a tree and stares at Naruto, you say he dosen't flee, I say he CANT flee.Again, Orochimaru CANNOT flee, hes in no position to run away. That would make this series very boring, I like it when the evil villans are the strongest.

I didn't expect him to flee after the 1-tail punch but he did have the opportunity if he wanted to. But why would he?

Oro did NOT have the time to flee after the 3-tail chakra claw smack which was what sent him flying - check out the same movement lines that were around the flying Kabuto earlier - into the forest (where the 2nd explosion DOES indeed take place as you can see from Sai's bird). If he did have the time, I don't think Orochimaru would have left this fight but he didn't so it doesn't matter.

But, he COULD have left (if he was really fearful) while Naruto transformed into the 4th tail (ample time) but chose not to. This is the first time I think he MIGHT have made a foolish mistake. He had all the signs that Naruto was truely changing this time and yet he let his curiosity get the better of him. This isn't to say Orochimaru's no match for 4-tail Naruto ... I believe it would be quite an even fight .... just that the smart thing would have been to escape when he could (maybe kidnapping Yamato in the process!) without risking anything. I agree it would have been boring and uncharacteristic is he did flee ... but it would have been smart.

And he could have. If he was physically unable to leave, it would have done quite the opposite of what you want and made him look weak indeed. But he's strong enough to have the opportunity to leave and he's overconfident enough to not take it so he won't flee and he will now be stuck in the middle of ground zero.

Orochimaru was never in a situation where his body was so wounded that he had to quickly replace it (and was able to fix the problem by replacing it)before. He's always had a clone in place or soulless arms. This is a big indicator of Naruto's growth. Neither Sasuke nor Naruto came even close to forcing Orochimaru to repair himself during the chunin arc. That fight was 100% always controlled by Orochimaru. This fight involves Orochimaru testing and taunting Naruto, certainly, but Naruto isn't easily just playing into his hands. He is surprising the Sannin at least. That said, Orochimaru hasn't yet even bothered to go on the offensive against him so you know he isn't just mocking Naruto when he underestimates Naruto's strength and when he compares it to a supposedly more powerful Sasuke. He really doesn't think he's a real threat until he 4-tails.

I don't understand some peoples logic. You can't have it both ways. Either a strike counts no matter (so arms missing even if easily replaced count) what or it only counts if it has any lasting effect. I go for the latter choice, which mean they are equal at 0-0. In Naruto a jutsu is only as effective as how much it inhibits the opponent, either by being defensive against an attack or by by taking an opponent down so they can't be offensive:

Chapter 291 - Orochimaru has his face ripped off by KN1 so it would seem Naruto 1 - Orochimaru 0 but Orochimaru has his skin jutsu which means there is no lasting damage (it probably hurt but had no long term effect) so its really 0-0

Then we have the ripped arm of 292, but again doesn't matter in the long run.

Chapter 294 - NK4 has his face punched out by Orochimaru so it would seem Orochimaru 1 - Naruto 0 but Naruto body is composed of chakra/blood which means there is no lasting damage (it probably hurt but had no long term effects) so its really 0-0 Orochimaru is split in half but is composed of snakes so doesn't matter ...Seems to me that Naruto has created more damage (although none of it was effective) than Orochimaru, who's one offensive strike also landed but had as much of an effect on Naruto's continued fighting ability as any of Naruto's attempts on Orochimaru. Nothing has really worked on either of them. Neither has been slowed up in their fighting one bit by any of the others attacks so far .... Everything has been countered somehow.

Chapter 295: Chakra fireball spit at Orochimaru but countered with Triple Rashoumon. Doesn't work and Orochimaru takes a hit although his life is spared due to his defense. Naruto 1- Orochimaru 0. He's hurt but no perminant damage (back to 0-0) cuz Orochimaru immediately is able to send his Kuranagi Sword up out of the rubble and into NK4. Pushes NK4 back across the bridge but we see no actual damage and chapter ends in the middle of the strike. So as it stands, it's a potential Naruto 0 - Orochimaru 1 but we have yet to get a close up to really analyze the hurt and we have yet to see if there was a counter-jutsu in place ....

But Chapter 296 proves 4-tails was not injured by the sword. The score is back to 0-0. And a good thing too because now other factors are intervening. This battle never has a conclusive winner because -

A) We have no clue what Orochimaru could do further but it doesn't look like much. His big strike (the Sword of Kusanagi) did nothing and now his body is rejecting him.

B) Looks like 4-tails could easily continue fighting but how would he have crossed the void this time? He's distracted by a charging Sakura and then tranquilized by Yamato's Shodai technique. So if the fight continued, Naruto might not even be conscious after this experience, and if he is, he will be back to normal and without his tails Naruto has no chance against Orochimaru (even if he's spent).

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I think the sheading skin thing at the end of Chapter 292 is a jutsu of sorts because he replaces it so fast with just his hand ... maybe a bloodline limit (snake skin along with the other snakelike qualities) or side effect of the possession jutsu? He certainly repairs his face as quickly as Gaara is able to repair his sand covering. I wonder if the skin jutsu requires a lot of chakra like Gaara's does?

It is just no jutsu we know of .... but it could very well be a bloodlimit associated with snakes (Kimimaru could modify his bones - why can't Orochimaru continuously shead his skin) , a component and long term side effect of the possession jutsu, or just some unknown jutsu he's picked up and we just didn't get to see the handsigns cuz he did them inside the discarded skin.

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''If i get hit by that i'll die no doubt.'' Orochimaru wasn't overestimating or underestimating anything for once. He simply realized the danger of the Chakra Spitball and countered as best as he could, which was enough to save his life but not enough to prevent the blow completely. And then he uses the Sword ... a gutsy and inconsistant move (and one that proves how serious he is now) considering he didn't want to kill Naruto in the first place ...

Logical reasons why Orochimaru still has the Sword of Kusanagi:

Origionally posted by Ifurita Fan:

Every time the Kusanagi Sword is used... Oro ends up the worse for it in the end. By the way... the Kusanagi sword is it's proper name... not just Kusanagi... which means cut grass. The Kusanagi Sword therefore means "grass cutting sword"Okay... back to the meat of the post. Each time Oro has used it in the manga... he ends up getting hurt. When he used it on Sarutobi... he impaled him on it... but had the arms of his soul cut out of him by the god of death. When he used it on Tsunade... he had the crap kiched out of him by her.It seems that each time he uses the weapon... he ends up getting messed up. So... in this issue 295... we see Naruto hit with the blade... and in one pannel what looks like a splash on the surface of the chakra armor... or maybe blood... still not sure which. But... we do not see the sword do what we've always seen it do previously... cut through it's target and exit the other side. Naruto got hit... and may have been wounded through the armour of blood (None of which we know for sure... so I'm playing it safe and saying it's a wound... but neither a critical hit like an impalment... or a total miss like it just hit the surface of the armor and did nothing)And just to clarify that... an impalment means the blade has to enter the physical body to a significant degree and stay lodged there. Just sticking in the blood armor doesn't count... we're talking stuck in Naruto here. That all said... Is it possible that Oro is about to get messed up again because he used the Kusanagi sword? The final panels showed what looks like Naruto's hand being on the blade... could Oro have miscalculated by leaving the sword exposed this long, giving Naruto a chance to grab it... and potentially try and break it? This is the third time the blade has been used... If Oro gonna fall victim to the law of things coming in threes?Is the Kusanagi sword cursed?

I really like this theory and think it will turn out that each one of the Sannin inherited or possesses at some point a "cursed" item. Orochimaru's is the sword, Tsunade's was the necklace she passed on to Naruto, and Jiraiya's remains a mystery.


# posted by Lexiefaye @ 2/07/2006
Comments:
"He's like the student who pours water into his ant farm. He isn't doing evil because he is mistakenly looking for greater purpose (e.g. Bleach's Aizen)"

...Actually, he belives that if he learns every jutsu and technique he will gain some greater universal truth. More than that he wishes to create new justu from the ones that allready exist.
What does that tell you hmm?
# posted by Anonymous Anonymous : 8:50 PM
 
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