Naruto Sharingan

As loothed as I was to do so ... I really liked Kabuto chapter 296. Really liked him. It reminded me that what makes Kabuto great is not the abstract ideas of his potential power but that he's an open book. He thinks everything through and he is willing to do good things as long as they help or don't interfer with his mysterious plans. If he really wanted to, he could have hurt Sakura, wood restraint or not. But Kabuto didn't because he's not evil for the sake of evil ... he's with Orochimaru not because Orochimaru has power and is a psychopath ... but because they have the similar mentalities of experimentation and manipulation. Or at least thats what he says ....

I suspect that on top of the reasons he gives for helping Sakura, he feels obligated to help the person who killed his former master (although she really didn't because Sasori commited suicide, but Kabuto doesn't know that).

He practically blew his cover when he helped Hinata because no one would have expected an ANBU to have medical skills and by then the Jounin's already knew Kabuto had those specific skills. I think he helped Hinata because she wasn't in the way of his plans and he has a soft spot for Konoha genins - he will help them unless they get in his way or become a threat ... Kabuto thinks everything out ... he's sly and manipulative but he isn't vicious outside of the battlefield.

The other thing that comes to mind is that Kabuto is an experimentor and this was a precious opportunity to examine a Hyuuga body .....

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Originally posted by Neji48972:

Kabuto's somewhat unique set of skills has been useful to Oro many times: 1. his superb espionage skills of course 2. His tactical assessment of Konoha's (and probably Suna's) capabilities played a part in the invasion of Konoha. The somewhat lead the Oto and Suna shinobi in the invasion of Konoha. 3. he most probably had a part in the assasination of Yondaime KazeKage 4. he "acquired" Oro's current body 5. his medical skills and his adeptness with corpse-related jutsus have been useful in Oro's experiments 6. He actually saved Oro from Tsunade's trickery when she pretended to agree to the deal.

It took me a while to decide between the butt section and here ..... But it was too gay to go anywhere else. Origionally posted by Splintered:

Way to take the initiative Kabuto.

Gunste!n's fake chapter 297: http://img425.imageshack.us/img425/7634/enveloperevealed1fv.jpg


Choinkees's Fake Chapter 297:




Rouge's Brokeback Naruto:

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d2...rproto/bn1.jpg
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With NF down most of this week, I ended up chating on no less than 4 different forums. NF has been so funny ... I swear I've been more amused by it's trials and tribulations today than anything that would've been posted there. *hangs head in shame* When I first got on I could do Jump Post no Jutsu where my posts would disappear for a minute and then reappear 2-3 posts ahead of where they should have. I ended up quoting before the quotes were even said and even became the first post to a thread once. Then the second time it revived itself, I couldn't quick reply and when I went to reply the long way it sent me to a different thread. Finally now it seems to be behaving itself.

Here is a link to a 296 Parody. Not the best but there are some great moments (like what's on Yamato's hand instead of the "sit" kangi) :

http://s35.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0X5TT3WQJPO0U2WJTQIDJO4F04

I also realized that this blog was becoming too large for its own good so I added an Outline (http://narutosharinganmain.blogspot.com/) to the side panel.

The ANIME/MANGA matchup chart is finally up to date! YIPPAY!!! http://hometown.aol.com/lexiefaye/mangaanime1.html I summarized the entire story since the latest dub chapter for Zero-Kool on Sunday (the link to that summary: http://hometown.aol.com/lexiefaye/basicsummary.html) so I fell behind on the chart ... but with a little determination and free time I got it done. Be sure to check out the explaination of this chart first: http://hometown.aol.com/lexiefaye/mangaanimekey.html. There is also a link to it on the sidebar.
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Lastly, here are some thoughts about the future of the anime fillers. The latest filler period is due to end soon (somewhere between now- Episode 173 - and Episode 185) but there has been talk how to prevent another LONG filler period by sticking fillers in between all the Part 2 Manga Arcs.

In the particular case of fitting a filler between the Gaara Arc and Current Yamato Arc, the timeframe won't be the easiest thing to change. Unlike Bleach's '2 months' and this current arc's '2.5 years', there is no established timeskip between these two manga Arcs. The main problems they have to write around to fit a filler in between are:

A) Kakashi being unavailable to join the team for the bridge due to his frailty after using MS. This can only be extended so long without having to make up a different excuse for his absense or have MS used again in the filler.

B) Team Kakashi in their Gaara Arc form can't exist without Kakashi (who must be shown reacting long term to MS) and Team Yamato can't exist until the Bridge Arc for established story reasons having to do with disfunctionality and how characters are introduced. So unless they plan to have Naruto join with other teams for obscure mission a la the current Arc .... which will be weird without knowledge of the former genin's new abilities.

C) We also have a very compact timeline in Part 2 of 6 months to get Sasuke before both Akatsuki and Orochimaru follow through with their plans. There is a sense of urgency any obsure, pointless filler could easy destroy. Adding any LONG fillers would actually mess up the timeline itself.

That said, I DO expect them to at least stick fillers between a couple Part 2 arcs and I can only hope they do so tastefully with as least inconsistancy of plot and mood as possible.

In honor of the Olympics I present ...The Konoha Summer Olympics Team:

Naruto: Rowing (with all his Bunshins in unison)
Sasuke: Swimming (Katon builds up lungs)
Sakura: Boxing (has lots of punch practice)
Ino: Softball (don't know why just somehow works)
Shikamaru: Soccer/Football (stratergy would come to play)
Chouji: Wrestling or Shotput (large bodies prefered)
Hinata: Gymnastics (small underdeveloped body)
Kiba: Track (running with Akamaru for practice)
Shino: Fencing (good to stay covered up)
Lee: Taekwondo (should be obvious)
TenTen: Shooting (good aim)
Neji: Archery (good vision, has experience on the other end of it)

So I was inspired by Bravo's Project Runway. One week the challange was to create a Lingerie collection of three looks and I immediately thought of Team7. So next thing I know I drew my own three lingerie items insipred by Naruto, Sakura and Sasuke.

For a month my sketches have just been lying around my apartment and I thought about scanning them but then a better idea came to mind. So I instead altered some Virtual models found at the Glamour website with Microsoft Paint.

Voila. My own Naruto runway!

Itachi's ninjutsu on Naruto was able to extract deep rooted fears of peeling skin (the 4-tail experience of which Naruto probably doesn't even consciously remember) .... and his Tsukiyomi pawnage of Kakashi was not a matter of Kakashi's mental weakness but of Tsukiyomi's overpowering, completely emcompassing strength as a absolute offensive strike. Tsukiyomi will only not work against those who are fearless (either thru courage, naivity, or emotional depravity ... like Sai?), those who can avoid it all together (I think Sakura eventually might be able somehow to do this - I have no proof but the innate genjutsu abilities she hasn't used - it's just a whim) and those who can somehow mentally overpower the Tsukiyomi world (other MS users? Naruto if Kyuubi is accidentally happened upon when Naruto's inner self enters the Tsukiyomi plane?) .... Ibiki has the fortitude and experience to withstand the torture and pain of Tsukiyomi for awhile, he would maybe have an easier time while experiencing it, but that doesn't mean he would be able to escape that Tsukiyomi world and fight back.

The freaky thing is during all that time that passed in the Tsukiyomi world while Kakashi was being torture, mere seconds were passing in the real world. This is why Tsukiyomi is so debilitating ... it's the speed in which it occurs and the fact that it takes your mind to a different mental plane so you can't simultaneously fight the user with other jutsu while in that state.

Tsukiyomi vs. Tsukiyomi?

In concept this would be incredible but I'm afraid it will be a dud visually. Does anyone really want to see Starry Night and The Scream go at it in battle? How do you even show one vision overpowering another when nightmarish visions tend to ebb and change automatically? And then you would feel cheated because it wouldn't effect either opponent physically in the real world, so as grand as all the armagedon level destruction is within their minds, in the end it would be as if they barely fought at all.


If MS is gained by the death of a best friend (witnessed or not)(at your own hands or not) then Sasuke is out of luck because I suspect even with everything that has happened, Naruto is still deep down his closest friend.

If MS is gained by just extreme guilt over something (not the act that causes the guilt), loss of your ninja way and ideals, or something completely different, then Sasuke is still destined to get it ....
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Originally Posted by ouroborus:

The Mangekyou is considered an evolution of the standard Sharingan, but it seems to have little in common with the base abilities of the Sharingan. As it only adds a few doujutsu and so far has not shown any change to the standard abilities of the Sharingan.

The normal Sharingan gains a higher mastery over its abilities with each additional tomoe (comma) until the final three tomoe per eye. Each tomoe seems to increase the ability to copy and predict the movements of their user's opponent. In the Mangekyou form, those tomoe grow in size and their shape warps. Instead of merely being an indication that the user is using a higher form of the Sharingan that gives them access to new doujutsu, what if this new shape actually increases the abilities of the normal Sharingan?

With the pupils combining with the three tomoe in a much larger shape, it may not only allow more light to enter the eye, but more of the visual information that the Sharingan uses. This could increase the ability to copy and predict movements to a much greater level. Perhaps even predict the movements much faster than a normal Sharingan can, giving Itachi an edge over other Sharingan users who are also trying to predict his movement at the same time. But on a normal eye, the pupil contracts to keep too much light out. Perhaps on the Sharingan, by increasing the visual information to a degree that is unsustainable they are damaging the eye and causing the blindness that Itachi is believed to have. However, the greater abilities might explain how Itachi was able to kill every Uchiha member despite the fact that many of them had Sharingan of their own. The few doujutsu Mangekyou has are so draining that Itachi couldn't have used them on everyone, but the mere increase of the Sharingan's abilities may have given him an incredible advantage.

But what amazing additions they are! Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu, and Kakashi's Dimension blackhole (what I speculate is the third god technique Susanoo) are not to be triffled with. They are the most powerful techniques we've seen (only 4-tails new stuff and Orochimaru's immortality Jutsu can remotely compare so far) and as its been proven more and more, the more powerful the jutsu or transformation, the worse the side effects are. I am not surprised Itachi is loosing his eyesight.

I very much enjoyed (and agree) with this analysis of the tomes and what having a larger pupil space might mean. I think what you propose is most logical. When it comes to the Massacre, either he didn't use his Mankegyou Sharingan at all, or he only used it in the capasity provided in this theory.

It says a lot thet his MS was still new (Kakashi needed time to get better using his) and yet he had enough energy after the Massacre to Tsukiyomi Sasuke. Some people say this is evidence that Itachi didn't even perform the Massacre itself but was just covering. I say he wouldn't have used it if he didn't need to because Itachi was trying to prove something to the clan (I don't think he was happy to get MS nor of it's original purpose) about the limitations they placed upon him. He wants to "test" his capasity so he isn't going to start with his ultimate techniques.

Furthermore, he was their prodogy member already without it - amazing at kunai throwing (how everyone is shown to have died except the parents, who were stabbed by sword) and so quick with handseals that Kakashi can't even read them. He didn't really need his trump card to kill most of the clan and he still had the shock factor against the few (like his father) who were powerful enough to fight back.

I swear I haven't done it on purpose! They just keep happening .... Yes I am an Archaeologist and thus have a particular fondness for butts as I see them all day, but I promise that had no influence on the humor in the following images!

First I present you with the 4th OP, Go!!!!! (Fighting Dreamers) :


















JUST GO MY WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Secondly we have The Kabuto Butt Scalpel! :

Origionally posted by Dyroness:

Of course, Kabuto can pull butt scalpels after hugging chakra spheres. Damn, he's so badass 8D

Origionally posted by Odlam:

HA! Kabuto beat Sakura without even using his hands, while fighting Kyuubi Naruto at the same time! And you people mocked his uberness. Fear him. FEAR! TREMBLE!

And lastly, The Sasuke Butt Poke! :

I wanted to show that Sasuke and Naruto were indeed NOT holding hands on the Chapter 293 cover. The cover had a slight problem ... It almost looked like their sholders were crossing when actually Naruto was slightly behind. People didn't take into acount that they are angling away from eachother. If they were perfectly side by side, and their arms would actually cross but that wasn't the case. Naruto is slightly behind Sasuke with his shoulders back (the way his arms are actually behind his back) aiming slightly to the left. Sasuke has his shoulders forward with his arm in front of him aiming slightly to the right. That is why their arms do NOT actually cross and they aren't actually holding hands. The illusion comes from them both having their heads tilted toward eachother.

Well, anyway .... I tried to fix the problem with a visual. I drew it that bent by accident but I had too much difficulty trying to fix it so I said screw it, at least it makes my point that their hands wouldn't touch and that their shoulders don't actually cross. I did not notice the other *issues* with the drawing at the time ... but now I love it because of those *issues*

Origionally posted by Lexiefaye:

Hopefully this will illustrate once and for all that they are not holding hands and not just that I am a crappy artist! The blue line shows the part of Sasuke's arm you can't see cuz it's block by Naurto and his own body.

The ironic thing is I didn't see the humor of what I drew until people pointed (no pun intended) it out. But it is pretty funny. Guess I should be oblivious more often!

Here are the reactions to it:

Origionally posted by Kataimiko:

well see, now people are going to get confused and wonder who's mysterious blue hand is groping Sasuke's ass.

Origionally posted by TenshiOni:

No, that's obviously Naruto using his new regular chakra arm jutsu to poke Sasuke's ass.

Origionally posted by quonita:

I was cracking up when I saw your picture. Thanks for trying to prove that visually, but that might be too much for some ppl.

Origioanlly posted by Chatulio:

Lexie what have your done T_T

Origionally posted by Shimomizu:

u almost bursted my stomach

Origionally posted by gSOLO:

Oh man, I'm coming late to this thread but that pic had me cracking up for a good few minutes. No offense or anything.

Origionally posted by tu sense:

I think your rendition of Sasuke's left arm is angled a little to sharply. I don't think it would go that far in, but that's just a guess.

Origionally posted by dhJackBurton:

Any particular reason you are pointing to Sasuke's butt?

THE SHORT VERSION:
In front to a cocky Orochimaru, Naruto gains his 4th tail ... thus losing mental control. He does this by mentally entering Kyyubi's sealed cage after seeing an image of Sasuke there. In a 4th tail state, Naruto at first has a line of of his own blood float towards the heavens and then is covered in a layer of blood/fur (not sure what it was) once the transformation is complete. His transforming forces Orochimaru to fall to the ground and Sai to leap to a tree after his ink bird is destroyed. It also causes a wood clone made by Yamato to make a wooden shield. Yamato, after awakening Sakura, sent this clone ahead to Naruto via a wood bridge he creates. And unnoticed by anyone, Kabuto while healing himself, comments that this must be why people want the Jinchuuriki's power.

THE GOOD VERSION:
Pages 1-2:Chapter starts where we left off. An enraged 3-tailed Kyuubitize Naruto faces down an amused Orochimaru who just shed his wounded one-armed body revealing a new uninjured one. Orochimaru is alarmed when he notices that dreaded 4th tail appearing. As Naruto bellies over in pain, we transfer over to his mental state, which is filling up with boiling chakra/water. Mental Naruto is engulfed in this and he simultaneously calls out to an image of Sasuke to wait.

Pages 3-4:Alas, Mental Naruto instead floats toward the sealed gate which encloses Kyuubi. In a daze, Mental Naruto actually floats through the bars which safely separate him from the evil Bijuu spirit. Inside, a gleeful Kyuubi encloses (the tiny by comparision) Mental Naruto between his hand. CLAP! And outside, Kyuubi Naruto's eyes suddenly become nothing but a glowing disk.

Pages 5-6:Kyuubi Naruto's skin is pulling off, literally tearing automatically off his face and hands. The blood floats off his body, like oil in a boiling pot of water, burning and splattering as it reaches the edge of his chakra shield. Orochimaru, still removing himself from his old skin, looks down on Naruto (now with a stream of blood rising towards the sky) and comments that "This feeling is different than before." Across the way, on the opposite side of the destroyed bridge, Yamato retreves Sakura from his wooden holder. She awakes in pain but is alright.

Pages 7-8:Yamato notices the blood line rising from where Naruto is and has a bad feeling about it. He makes a wood clone of himself, which rips away from his body. It leaps onto a portion of the new wooden bridge supports that then snakes its way across the void to the other side of the bridge.

Pages 9-10:Sakura is now with it enough to notice the destroyed bridge which Yamato promptly explains was caused by Naruto. She worriedly asks where he is and Yamato explains he's on the other side of the void fighting Orochimaru. Behind and unnoticed by them, Kaburo chakra heals his stomach and while removing his broken glasses says "The power of a Jinchuuriki .... Its not for no reason that these guys want it". A slightly worried but unconcerned Sai flies above the scene of bleeding Naruto as Yamato's clone races there on his wooden transportation.

Pages 11-12:As Yamato's clone arrives on the otherside, Naruto screams out in pain. The blood line crashes back upon him and the energy of it explodes outward. Yamato's clone is alarmed.

Pages 13-14:Just in time, Yamato's clone makes a wooden shield for himself, which looks like the bow portion of a boat stuck in the dirt in front of him. Sai is hit much harder by the blast, and his ink bird blasts out in an ink spray from under him. he jumps onto a tree limb. Orochimaru ends up prostate on the ground. With his tongue stuck out he remarks "How interesting ... This child ... really ..." Yamato's clone is alarmed once again.

Pages 15-16:Before him is a 4-tail Kyuubitize Naruto, but this is nothing like the earlier Kyuubitized states. There is no visible bubbling chakra shield surrounding Naruto's fox-like body. Instead the blood and chakra has formed what appears to be a 4-tailed foxes body, fur and all. His face is just a blacked mask of shadows showing only a pupilless glowing eye and his sharp teeth. And as Naruto, or actually we should probably say Kyuubi now, growls out demonic laughter, Sai watches on from a tree and Yamato says "shit" because he knows he didn't make it in time.

Monday: Work on your own Naruto blog that you made cuz you're sick of trying to repeat missing posts from months ago! And Monday is the most blah Naruto day. Boring.

Tuesday: Bleach Anime ... then spend rest of the day checking for spoiler pics even though you know they won't appear yet.

Wednesday: Spoiler pics and Anime. Woot. Best day on the planet!!!! Discuss Discuss Discuss.

Thursday: Spoiler pic boredom sets in ... where's the raw already!?! Grrr.

Friday: Yeah Raw! But you realize you already figured everything important out from just the spoiler pics .... Oh well, at least you can have fun surfing the new threads.

Saturday: Day for deep analysis. All the easily thought up threads have been picked apart and now people are really thinking hard. Theorists unite!

Sunday: Full, sated ... and already feel the agony for the next chapter slowly creeping in. Only have a few last things to say but it can wait until Grey's Anatomy is over.

I know this chart isn't concrete .... but then again we don't exactly have a lot of concrete data to go on yet. It's nothing more than a theory. And I made thechart in order to show that the reason why I think 50/50 belongs at the 4-tail spot ... exactly where the mind switch occurs ... is because he has two phases with 0 tails - normal Naruto (everyday) and feral red chakra Naruto (think the Haku fight).

Only reason I used 'Shield' is because that is what I find is used to describe it most within these forums. I agree that the better terms are chakra shroud and chakra shell ...

I used the KN and NK to signify which has the greater content and control. KN is Kyuubitized Naruto because it is more Naruto mentally and physically but with Kyubbi features. NK is Narutotized Kyuubi because it is more Kyuubi mentally and physically but with Naruto features. I did this coming from an Archaeology background where you describe soil this way. For example SaCl would be Sandy Clay, or in other words, clay with a sand content. SiSa would be Silty Sand - sand with silt in it. There is also the term Loam (so you could even call soil SaClLo, Sandy Clay Loam but we won't go there!) which is a completely equal mix of sand, silt and clay ... and would be used to describe NK4 if he were made of soils.

Chart up to date as of Chapter 294 .....


Originally Posted by Momochi Gaara

mmmmm didnt think on that really but my question to u is if naruto is included without tails why doesnt kyuubi have a form beyond the 9 tails in your chart..

the 9 tails in your chart i would consider the last point of the seal.. annd put a physical type of kyuubi after the 9 point.. (i think lexie understands what i mean but for those who dont.. am not trying to say 10 tails.. but a 9 tail form after the 9 tail form) say 10 or even worse 10 10.. like your 0 0 phases.. but i think after the 9 tail point has been reached it would virtually impossible to get back to 0 state..

I did think about that and without any evidence either way (9 tail is Kyuubi vs two 9 tail states) I choice to go with option a. The reason I chose that option was because I was purposely trying to understand (for myself) why the mental switch (sealed gate crossing) would've happened when it did, during the transformation into a 4-tail state. But now that I think more about it I think there is also a longical explaination why there is only one 9 tail state.

We have to think of normal Naruto as part of the transformation into Kyuubi considering that even without the seal activated, Kyuubi is in there. But the other end of the spectrum is different. This is because Kyuubi is sealed withIN Naruto and not the other way around. I don't think there is any difference between Kyuubi 9-tails with a Jinchuuriki body inside verses a Kyuubi 9-tails normal.

It is due to either one of two things happening when 9-tail is reached:

A) Bijuus always have a Jinchuuriki within them. They perhaps can't have an earthly form without having a body as a way of grounding them. Shukaku in full form still had Gaara's body within him .... and I suspect it is the same if Kyuubi ever reaches his full form. Therefore, a 9-tail Kyuubi with Naruto's body IS the only 9-tail state ... and that would mean there is only one 9 tail state.

B) Bijuus escape from a Jinchuuriki in order to reach a REAL full form. I think (just speculation) the only way he can reach 9 tails is if the seal no longer exists (Bijuu completely released) and Kyuubi is no longer dependent on his Jinchuuriki body (and thus will no longer willing to protect it and Naruto's body will just be consumed within the beast) ... Bijuu are demon spirits and perhaps they can only have earthly forms when a body is sacrified. A body is sacrified when they are sealed within the Jinchuuriki (Yondaime, Gaara's mother) and so I don't think it is far fetched to think that a body must also be sacrifies for them to escape a Jinchuuriki ... and the body sacrified is the Jinchuuriki's. Therefore, a 9-tail Kyuubi without Naruto's body IS the only 9-tail state.

In summary, to go from a 9-tail state (with body) to another 9-tail state (Normal Kyuubi) would REQUIRE the escape from the Jinchuuriki body because Normal Kyuubi does not have Naruto in him unlike Normal Naruto who does have Kyuubi dormant in him! This is why it is unlikely there are two 9-tail states ... the escape from the Jinchuuriki body needs to be the last part of the process and that is very likely to be what allows for the 9-tail state in the first place.

We don't know if NK4 can speak or not ... I just think until Kyuubi does speak from NK4 we can't be certain he is as equally in control of NK4's mind as Naruto was in control of KN3's mind. If Kyuubi did speak out of NK4 it would imply Naruto = KN3 : Kyuubi = NK4. But for now it looks instead like Naruto = KN3: Kyuubi = NK5 and NK4 is something different, in between the two. And his techniques seem to be a mesh of their two styles. Chakra claw is the Kyuubitized Naruto Punch, Chakra body split is the Kyuubitized Kage Bunshin, and Chakra Spitball the Kyuubitized Rasengan. Not saying it is a Rasengan but that it is Kyuubitized Naruto's equivalent Jutsu.

Origionally posted by Wrath:

Just look at the eyes! They're completely blank. Those aren't Naruto's eyes, they aren't Kyuubi's eyes, and they aren't even Kyuubi Naruto's eyes. They're just blank.

I don't think he is ever "mindless" but he could be functioning totally in a daze because neither Naruto nor Kyuubi has the upper hand right now. Just like how Naruto gets less focused as he becomes more enraged and Kyuubi gets more focused when he becomes enraged, it makes sense that the least focused state would be the halfway mark. He's very animalistic right now ... also the halfway point between a human and a animalistic demon ... animals have minds and the ability to attack but they don't have reasoning power like a human or a demon would.

I'm treading lightly but I do feel a little validated by what Kabuto said. The big mystery for me is if 4-tail is that way because both Kyuubi & Naruto are in such a daze that he's practically mindless or if Kyuubi is slightly in control (like a dominant gene) but again so slightly that it's not Kyuubi yet. Naruto is in by book proven to be definitely not mental control anymore.

I think he does have a vague knowledge of what happens when he's 4-tailing but it is deeply buried in his subconscious. Enough about it is ingrained in the pits of his mind that Itachi's fear genjutsu showed Naruto's fear involved his skin peeling off (sound familar) when he turned into CS2 Sasuke ... But considering Inner Naruto was in a daze last we saw him and then sealed inside Kyuubi's hands, I have a feeling he won't really know what happened past Orochimaru's last taunt. Nothing indicates that his relationship with Jiraiya has seriously changed, which I assume would have happened had Naruto fully realized he once almost killed Jiraiya.

298 Update:

Naruto's memory is really strange after he wakes up. He has no recollection of not only the portion of the fight where he 4-tailed but it seems he forgot everything involving the time he Kyuubitized period. Strange, because I assumed that he has relatively strong mental control while KN1-3. A good explaination I heard involves a trama induced amnesia effect. This odd amnesia made me realize that other than Itachi's fear genjutsu ... which could probably utilize even the most buried fears and memories, we have no evidence that he recalls the Valley of the End fight beyond the point that Sasuke practically drowns him. Naruto knows he failed to stop Sasuke but I wonder how much he remembers about how close he was to succeeding.
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Naruto hasn't completely lost his mind yet in 3-tails ... he didn't hurt Sakura on purpose. He is just too unfocuses by rage while with 3-tails to notice anything but the target he's aiming for. The difference is that whan he reaches 4-tails he'll also see his friends as targets.

It's too simple to say that when he passes thru the locked gate it just means he's mentally switching to Kyuubi. He obviously is. But isn't that just shown by the rising waters - like a fog in Naruto's mind. It makes him drift away from the thought that are important to him - Sasuke's existance in his mind. The gate is something else. He passes through it in a trance and he floats through - which isn't the same as willingly walking there. Perhaps the waters are symbolic of Naruto losing his mind but the gate is symbolic of Naruto losing his body? I found it really interesting that Kyuubi take over not by Naruto just floating thru the cage but by Kyuubi trapping him in his hands. We must'nt forget that the gate is Yondaime's seal ... It's stange enough that Naruto would even be able to enter the seal at all ...

I also assumed he was floating away from his mind's image of Sasuke when he passes through the gate. That would mean that the mental fog caused by Kyuubi is pulling him away from the Naruto's mental motivations and important thoughts as he is pulled closer into Kyuubi's grasp.

He isn't truely 100% Kyuubi yet (until Kyuubi speaks out of Naruto instead of just the feral sounds, he isn't yet been 100% mentally transformed) but still a mix of the two .... and Naruto will still have some influence (although very little - he can always fight back) on the situation because he is still awake within Kyuubi's hands. But mental Naruto's crossing of the sealed gate symbolized something important - and that is the fact that now Kyuubi is more in control than Naruto. And as long as Naruto can't tell foe from friend and doesn't control the motivations behind Kyuubi's actions, for all intensive purposes it is as if Naruto wasn't even there anymore.

4-tails is "Out of control" ... Out of the control in the sense that Kyuubi will continue destroying everything until stopped .... You're right that this could be a good thing when friends aren't nearby (in DBZ it would be like the giant ape form if no one we cared about is around - uber pawnage with little risk) - it lets him be much stronger against extremely strong foes. But the fact is that once those foes are destroyed or forced into retreat (unlike Hollow Ichigo where Ichigo can force himself back to normal) Naruto will continue his carnage. The only folks who can and will be willing stop him are his friends who must get dangerously close to do so.

He is not nearly as berserk as people were expecting. I wasn't surprised. Even wild animals understand enough to go after the person attacking them first ... and it helps that Orochimaru is the closest target ....

Originally Posted by Clan cookbook:

Personally, given his previous interactions with the fox, asking him for power to protect his precious people, and the fox granting it, I think it was just that, except on the next level.To me, it seemed that when he told Sasuke to wait, he then immediately changed direction towards the fox as a guardian and friend, in a situation where no one else could protect him from the danger of facing off someone as powerful as Orochimaru. Indeed, I think that the fox was not so much as closing his hands around Naruto to gain control over him, rather than to shield him from what was going to be a mentally and physically intense battle.A few more points I'd like to make:-The databook itself says that Kyuubi and Naruto are on good terms. Why would Kyuubi have a malicous intent towards Naruto if that were true?

I would think the same thing except for the clearly malicious look that was on Kyuubi's face before he snapped his hands shut. They are on good terms as in, Naruto has made that deal with him ... and Naruto isn't mentally struggling with the demon within him (yet), but that doesn't mean Kyuubi won't take advantage of Naruto if that means he can get out and do some damage. Naruto didn't swim toward kyuubi in a frantic or desperate way. He didn't willingly walk through the bars with an "Okay. Help me Kyuubi!" He floated through on the current of the chakra/water while his mind was obviously in a dazed, totally drugged out state.

Kyuubi's only motivations are to stay alive, and destroy everything. He therefore, will do everything in his power to keep Naruto alive but when given the opportunity, will happily abuse his good standings with Naruto if that means he can use Naruto's body to do all that destruction. His attacks when Kyuubi takes over his mind will be aimless and uber-powerful ... like a nuclear plant exploding. That means it will hurt anyone who gets too near and will charge all moving targets but he won't specifically charge anyone in particular (except maybe preference for someone attacking him back) .... That also means if Sasuke appears, other than the potential situation that it will snap Naruto out of it, if Kyuubi is mentally in charge he will just be another thing to destroy, nothing special.

Also an interesting thing we saw here is that Naruto's kyuubi-seal is not weakening as Jiraya thought... The reason for Jiraya thinking that the seal is weakening was b/c Naruto took Kyuubi's mini-form, but now we saw that the one who enters the seal is Naruto himself and not Kyuubi who get's out of it.

If it was weakening we would've seen the gate melting or opening a crack ... but instead Naruto floated through it. So the weakness wasn't that of the seal, but a weakness of Naruto's resolve and mental strength not to pass through the gate. This is actually a more optomistic view because it means he can fight against the current heading toward Kyuubi's gate sometime in the future.

Originally Posted by bearzerger:

As I understood it the seal protects Naruto from the main part of Kyuubi's chakra. His own chakra works only as a stopping gag for that part of Kyuubi's chakra that can leak through the seal. And this part is growing ever larger as the seal weakens so Naruto's chakra has to grow stronger in turn to stop it. Jiraiya's training in part 1 taught Naruto how he can open that stopper for a bit so that Kyuubi's chakra can leak through in a way that he can control it. The mistake Yamato accuses Naruto of making is choosing Kyuubi as the easy way out. Naruto fears that his own strength might be lacking to safe Sasuke from the likes of Orochimaru so he turns to the unlimited power the Kyuubi promises. Meaning he lacks the confidence in his own strength when he is cornered.

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Physically, I really don't think he can Kage Bunshin while Kyuubitized ... remember how his bunshin burned and went puff when Naruto 2-tailed during the Gaara arc ....

In 4-tail that isn't fur but Naruto's blood filling up the chakra shell. Yuck! The chakra shell creates a fox shaped body that completely envelops Naruto's and this is what is filling and flowing over in blood. The claws and fur are just part of the more developed chakra shell and Naruto body is still inside it but unseen through all the blood and chakra. But now that Kyuubi is mentally in charge - it is his shape that has become visible. I think it's too uniquely something else to be just a mini Kyuubi(not a visible Naruto in his normal chakra shell but not just a vision of Kyuubi either) to be anything but Naruto's 4-tail form. I think the oddness of the chakra shell can be explained by the blood and chakra in and on it.I assume that continuously while in this state Naruto is rehealing and repeeling and therefore is loosing a lot of blood but is growing more blood at a really rapid pace ...

Origionally posted by MagiRed:

The entire fight the only think he has done is sit up or move his arms. The only time his body has moved was when he was punched by Orochimaru, and again when Kusanagi moved him. If you look at page 13 he knew something was coming, but he never tried to dodge. Even Yamato wonders how he can move. So what do you think?

I think NARUTO is unconscious and thus can't move his own body but KYUUBI can and is moving it for him .... Naruto is passed out (his mental capasity at least) inside the chakra shroud and the only thing moving his destroyed body is Kyuubi ... Whenever Naruto converts back to normal he'll be healed but be out, and still need a conciderable recovery time I'm guessing.

Origionally posted by Kyuubi Naruto:

Anyone can see that Yamato was surprised that Naruto's body could handle Kyuubi's chakra even if he is a Jinchuuriki and holder of Kyuubi. Yamato has seen what Naruto is capable of and even he is surprised at the amount of chakra Naruto can hold. Then his comment of "Naruto what are you" even proves it further.

Exactly my thoughts. This surprise or concern is noteworthy because Yamato probably knows quite a bit about Jinchuuriki considering his supposed powers. I think the quote shows that not all Jinchuuriki are as in tune with their Bijuu as Naruto is - that many can't quite reach and utilize the full potential of power provided by their Bijuu. Kyuubi has not only more power, but debilitating power, and a wicked mind that would typically do everything in Kyuubi's abilitios to undermine Naruto and try to escape/break the seal further. But Kyuubi is not doing this and Naruto is fairly stable in his 4th tail state. Something is surpressing Kyuubi's power over Naruto. Yamato assumes it's something in Naruto's makeup because with such a wicked mind it's unlikely Kyuubi is behind this stability ... but we readers know the relationship a little better ...and it still doesn't explain how Naruto can physically withstand it.

Gaara was the best for Shukaku as he didn't reject the Bijuu but think of the negative effect on Gaara mentally that hasn't been happening to Naruto. And now he physically is withstanding 3 more tails than that as well. Something about Naruto is different ...

A)It could simply be Yondaime's seal and that it seals in the worst effects. I am not sure how this works considering inner Naruto has actually passed through the gate. What could have happened was that Naruto is unconscious completely within his chakra shell due to the pain, blood loss and the gate passage. KYUUBI is the one moving his mindless body like a puppet from a place where the pain can't reach Kyuubi or Naruto, inside the seal.

B)It could be Naruto's pact made with Kyuubi which has put them on good terms so that Kyuubi is withholding some of the power and damage to allow Naruto to function and achieve his goals even with Kyuubi at the helm. This could have been why Kyuubi enclosed inner Naruto in his hands, to protect his body from the worst harm.

C) It could be something to do with Naruto's unknown heritage. A bloodlimit we don't quite know yet?My vote is for a nice little combination of a + b. Kyuubi is simultariously playing puppetmaster with Naruto's unconscious body while protecting Naruto from the greatest of harm ... and he's willing to fight to protect the Jinchuuriki body he calls home AND for Naruto's cause because of the pact.

This chakra/blood body apparently also burns to the touch. I do believe it is automatic, constant and not just a jutsu turned on by NK4. A punch is a much quicker contact than a grab. It like when you quickly run your hand through a flame - if you do it quick enough you'll be fine - but if you leave your hand on the flame for any long period you'll get burned. The chakra shell burns but it isn't MADE out of fire. Shukaku was MADE of sand and mixed sand, wind and chakra to do jutsus. NK4 is make out of blood and chakra (the two logical medium theories I've heard are Blood and Chakra) and mixes blood, fire and chakra so far to do jutsus.

increased tails = increased stability of form = increased chakra control = increased jutsu control = increased power

increased tails = decreased mental stability = decreased motivational control = decreased stratergy = increase in berserk behavior

So he will better be able to control his actions themselves but will be worse at controlling what he does with and why he does those actions. he'll be able to do some wicked stuff but who knows where it will be aimed. BUT all this is dependent upon a couple factors I don't fully agree with. The way I see it, this is the most berserk state because it is the one where neither Kyuubi nor Naruto is really in full mental control or capabilities ... they are BOTH in a kinda daze and I think from now on in truth with each tail Kyuubi will also become less out of it (in the opposite direction of Naruto loosing focus due to rage, Kyuubi will gain focus due to rage!) and therefore become less berserk. Thats when the real question will arise .... what are Kyuubi's motives?

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Originally Posted by Wrath:

The really interesting thing with the fact that his skin peeled off... is that we've seen it before.Remember Itachi's "deepest fears" Genjutsu? Naruto's skin peeled off there too, in just the same way. That made for a nice, very subtle hint to the future.

Maybe Naruto can't exactly remember being in a 4-tail state because he is mentally absentee when it happens ... but the experience is still somehow locked in his subconscious and his innate fears of the physically painful state he doesn't even remember experiencing showed themselves when Naruto's fears are extracted from him as that Genjutsu. This would be further evidence that Naruto isn't completely unconscious and out of the picture at 4-tails.

Gaara's power is to control sand. Kazekage Gaara has not shown any hand seals yet he did a shield of sand, sand claws, desert coffin and controlled sand waves with only a few arm movements.

I came to the conclusion that Naruto's ability is to control chakra. Not his enemy's chakra but his infinite stock of Kyuubi chakra. Why u ask? Kyuubi Naruto (which is his forum name and is really Naruto tapping into his power) has demonstrated the following abilities:

- Kaitengan (what he used to pawn Kabuto)

- Chakra extendable claws

- Chakra blast

- Chakra shield which is activated automatically when he goes into his kyuubi mode.

- Pumped up rasengan

I think that these two jinchurukis have come to a point where they don't need hands seal anymore to control their "element". I know that Gaara lost Shukaku but I use him to show that Naruto is almost at the same lvl of jinchuruki power as Gaara, even though Gaara could use his power way before Naruto

Would be a clear reason why Kyuubi is the most powerful Bijuu ... he needs nothing but his own unlimited chakra resources (see Dyro's Bijuu legends thread) to cause destruction. And it works well with Naruto's innate fighting character even when he isn't Kyuubitized. Unlike most ninjas that use the elements to make jutsus, Naruto has always just used his chakra. Instead of water/mud/sand (you got the idea) clones, Naruto Kage Bunshins, making clones out of nothing but distributed Chakra. Rasengan is also just a manipulation of chakra. So chakra control is Naruto's forte.

But Sakura is right ... Naruto is the best qualified to be able to control chakra, even the red chakra, but that doesn't mean he can completely succeed doing so, especially when this much chakra is being released. If red chakra could be taken as a pill for a one time energy burst and usage, I don't think Naruto in his normal state of mind could just suddenly decide to use it to make a shockwave and do it correctly.

When Sakura said this demon chakra can't be controlled I believe she meant by a normal ninja (like normal Naruto) using it for jutsus. She did not mean it can't be controlled and manipulated by Kyuubi himself. The ability to do these chakra jutsus is more an instinct Naruto gains from Kyuubi when he transforms. When he Kyuubitizes up through 3-tails, Naruto is mentally in control of where he aims the attacks and how he wishes to use the power, but I still think it's the Kyuubi inside him that creates the attack, and provides the raw power in whatever form is needed. It's Kyuubi's chakra and chakra control that Naruto's just borrowing for his own goals in exchange for rent. Therefore, it's really that Naruto is influenced strongly by Kyuubi when it comes to his own abilities but really Chakra control is the element behind all of KYUUBI's abilities.

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An internal weakness is very different than an external counterattack. They can't be treated the same - one is a temporary solution while the other is a true limitation of power. A counter attack can be destroyed, negotiated around, or beat somehow head on. The stickers can at some point (for example) fall off before Naruto fully transforms back. They can run out of stickers. The Necklace is dependent upon the presence of a single individual, Yamato, and we know humans are not invunerable. The harm that befalls Naruto when he tails is a completely different story. It is not something you can easily write the plot around. It is not something Naruto can just "deal with" - it is an issue much more inbedded in the process of Kyuubitizing itself and therefore, this is a true weakness and a true limitation on his power.

(Kimimoto knew he was dying and was totally loyal to Orochimaru already so why would he care if he was completely mentally overcome by the CS? The reason Sasuke had to be more careful is because he doesn't want to become a powerless to Orochimaru - he just wants to use Orochimaru for power but then be able to make his own decisions and leave to get his vengence. The stage 2 CS is less a physical, more a mental threat.)

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WTF did Jiraiya DO to get Naruto to revert back to normality?

What SPECIFICALLY could Jiraiya have done to cause Naruto to transform back (the stickers wouldn't have existed yet) if using any techniques to knock him out won't work (in the 4-tail state he's already unconscious), reasoning with him won't work, and I'm not sure he could've gotten close enough to seal it in a la 5-point seal? This isn't cuz I think the red chakra would burn him. Anyone who says the red chakra would burn if another shinobi were touched by it is making assumptions. All we know for sure is the effect it has on Naruto himself and having something like that emminating from your body is quite different than just touching it. I think he couldn't reach Naruto cuz at that point Naruto would be too fast and violent. So what did he do?

"Nearly killed" is ONLY used in a normal battle when there is nothing or only one thing left to save you ... if anything more exists then the ninja was never really in danger of actually dying. That is why Tsunade wasn't "nearly killed" by Orochimaru - as long as she had the regeneration technique (and was willing to use it), her life was never really in danger. Orochimaru's wasn't "nearly killed" by Sandaime's curse because as long as he had the means to access a new body, he was never really going to die from the technique. As long as something you have can overcome the threat, it's NOT actually a serious threat.

But you can't assume this is true for Jiraiya because neither event he brings up could be called a normal battle. You can't assume that if Jiraiya's life was ever in serious danger it's only because he no longer had ANYTHING to counter Tsunade's or Naruto's attack. The one exception to the "nearly killed" = "used up everything" is self-sacrifice. He wouldn't have wanted to really harm Tsunade or Naruto. Jiraiya wouldn't go easy on them but if it came a choice between his own life and theirs, Tsunade and Naruto are probably the only two people in existence he might value more than his own life.

Jiraiya's life could have been in danger these two times just because he was either A) willing to give up his life in exchange or B) limited because he wasn't willing to use that last trump to kill a friend. Yet I still assumed (perhaps wrongly) when I first read the chapter that Jiraiya stated he was only twice "nearly killed" to indicate the only two times he didn't have a back-up plan (i.e. another trump card to get him out of a dangerous situation) because he exausted them all.

At least in the case of 4-tail Naruto, as much as Jiraiya would not want to harm his pupil and as much as I believe he would never see Naruto (even in that form) as a monster, Jiraiya couldn't afford to sacrifice himself and let Kyuubitize Naruto get more out of hand. In other words ... at least this second time Jiraiya would have fought off the attack with ALL his abilities and somehow still was only saved by luck or his very last technique.

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As far as Naruto knows, all of his friends are in the forest a few miles away. If they were smart, they'd just go and hide until he and Oro finish tussling it out. He had no idea that they would follow him after he just unloaded a serious can of whoopass on the bridge and Oro... Hell, he could have been trying to incapacitate Sakura for the sole purpose of her not following him when he couldn't be absolutely sure of his control.

In Chapter 292, Naruto did not knock out Sakura on purpose. She was accidentally knocked out when Kabuto just happened to go flying in that direction. He did not notice her fall or anything but Orochimaru's taunts and Kabuto's attack since he 3-tailed. I agree it would be smart of his teammates to let Naruto destroy everything (including Orochimaru) and then afterwards, go in and do whatever it takes to bring Naruto back. But they can't afford to do so. Firstly, Sai will intervene due to whatever mission he has ... and Yamato will have to get him out of the path of destruction. If Sakura was there (people keep forgetting she is on the otherside of the bridge and it will take her some time to get to Naruto) she would try to intervene in a form of help for Naruto in the battle but as he wouldn't recognize her, Yamato would have to save her too. But mostly, the longer Naruto remains in this state, the more he injures himself. So Yamato knows he's on a timelimit and therefore, has to be the one to juggle between Naruto being strong enough long enough to survive an Orochimaru fight ... but also NOT let Naruto get so out of hand that helping him become too difficult and Naruto will lose too much of his life ...

Naruto wouldn't burn out. Kyuubi is described as having unlimited Chakra, Naruto is continuously healing himself, and Kyuubi just took control so Naruto's chakra levels and ability to control chakra are no longer an issue. I don't think he can even burn out .... It's more likely that Naruto's body will die over time from the amount of power than that the power will run out ...

I love Sakura (especially post timeskip) but this is beyond her abilities. She physically can't take him so then we must rely on her emotional impact on him. If anyone could reach Naruto in his current condition, Sakura's the gal (i think the only other person who could also do it is Sasuke and I don't see that happening yet) but I really doubt Sakura's emotions or common sense will reach a 4-tailed Naruto. The fact that Naruto didn't notice her fall last chapter helps prove that even in 3-tail state, his focus on his teammates was seriously dulled. Now he won't even recognize them. Sakura will be quite upset but she's become a lot more stoic since Sasuke left so she will more likely be useful through frantic healing of Naruto afterward. She will not frozen from shock and sadness.

Originally Posted by Hiiro:

Naruto: BAROO!!! RAWR RAWR!!! MEOW!

Sakura: Liek omg what the shizzle happened to my narizzle!?

Naruto: BEW BEW BEW ZAP RAWR!!! MOO!!!

Sakura: I...I will stop Naruto!

*sakura starts crying and runs up behind naruto and hugs him*

Naruto: ...meep? ...

*pause*......

*pause*...

*Naruto bites Sakuras head off*

Orochimaru: Sasuke bites head better...

I believe everyone is shocked and worried ... but it is more out of concern for Naruto's well being than of fear for the monster state itself. They don't think of him in the way Konoha's elders do. It's more like the way good friends might treat a friend with a serious drug addiction if they see them overdose. You don't think of the friend as a junkie ... you think of them as a friend with a serious problem you want to help them overcome. I think he has garnered too many friends who even this way would want to help Naruto and won't see him just as a monster ... but realize the guy who befriend them, taught them something, or showed them how to hope is hiding inside. Most of the village I don't think respected Naruto even after the chunin exam events ... and the ones that really did see beyond the villages shallowness are too close to him and understanding now for them to oustrsize him again, even if they are fearful. They will mainly react out of concern for Naruto's well being than out of fear.

Naruto's state of mind after this experience will very much hinge on how mentally aware he has been and will be of his actions while in a 3-tail and 4-tail Naruto state. He will feel guilty about loosing his temper either way but if he has any memories of what happens, He'll probably be much more depressed about it. It also is very dependant upon what he does to Orochimaru and his teammates ... If there are positive side effects he might even gloat or be annoyed when confrunted about his behavior ... but if he harms any one of his teammates, he will be miserable.

But that doesn't remotely mean he will want to seal it up. He KNOWS he needs to be able to tap into this power when confronted by Akatsuki and or Sasuke again .... Kyuubi is a huge risk to have but his goals are hopeless without it. If Naruto is really torn up about it, he more likely will just not wish to go on any missions where he might harm people. He might even run away (ironically similar to Sasuke!) to search for Sasuke on his own ... thinking he has enough power and training now to do so but he's too dangerous to take those he cares about with him.

I don't think it will be that big of an issue because he will be stopped before anything perminantly serious happens. Yamato won't leave Naruto vunerable like that if he can help it ... but if Naruto is about to hurt one of the other teammates, I don't think Yamato will have much of a choice but to act no matter what Orochimaru is up to at the time. I don't believe this will happen but it is a possibility.

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For analysis of Yamato's Bijuu control technique go to : http://narutosharingan.blogspot.com/2006/02/chapter-291-necklace-jutsu.html

Naruto defininately learned many new jutsus while with Jiraiya cuz otherwise he wouldn't be ready for the higher level of fighting present in part 2. And these are most likely Ninjutsu or Nin/taijutsu combos. Even by Meh's strandard of 3 months or so to master advanced techniques (and when comparing to other konoha shinobi who aren't geniuses, they take about as long before displaying new less uber techniques) that provides enough time for about 10 new techniques. If Naruto was a normal shinobi, he would utilize all his time away just toward new Jutsus. And mastery of these techniques would be tantamount.

But Naruto doesn't need that many because he has natural gift of Kyuubi. Kyuubi means he A. can fight damn well without mastery cuz he has so much chakra to spare and B. he has talents like the chakra claw that require no training. But this advantage has a twist - Naruto must sacrifice time he'd focus on new jutsu so he can instead learn to harness Kyuubi's power and control it. A lot of Jiraiya's training, I'm sure, was seeking out Kyuubi's power without being lost to it (which is probably why he can tail so quickly now - but also why Jiraiya knows he's not in control of it yet when multi-tailed) which left little time to acquire a plethora of new jutsus ...

My guess is he has about 7-8 new ones ... half of which he's mastered. These are 4-5 advancements of old jutsus, 2 completely new stuff, and 1 "that jutsu" which I won't even bother attempting to label lest the entire forum decides to guioteine me for loose assumptions.
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I really feel like "that jutsu" will be a true jutsu with hand signs and everything ... and we'll know 100% that it is "that jutsu" when it happens. If it was going 4-tail, Jiraiya would have warned Naruto about his temper not the jutsu in particular ... and Naruto wouldn't have been so guilty about it considering he isn't exactly in mental control when he 4-tails.

The key difference is that when Kakashi used his MS, he said "Mangekyou Sharingan" and thus made it clear what it was. Naruto has yet said "that jutsu" or anything to let us know this is it .... so it's not.

Furthermore, "that jutsu" involves a conscious choice to use it or not - hense Jiraiya's warning. We can tell by mental Naruto's out of it state and his floating in the current of the bubbling fog of his mind thru the sealed gate toward Kyuubi, that when he transitions to a 4-tail state, it is anything but a rational decision he chooses to make. If 4-tailing was "that jutsu" mental Naruto would've been like "Grrrr. I won't take this taunting from Sasuke's captor! I've got to do it!" and then he would have walked willingly thru the bars of the gate and willingly into Kyuubi's grasp so he could willingly 4-tail. Jiraiya's warning was specifically against "that jutsu" which if it was "that justu" would specifically indicate an ability to stop between 3 and 4 tails. All Yamato said was Naruto could make the choice not to Kyuubi at all ... he has said nothing about control while already within the Kyuubify process.

Did Jiriaya tell Naruto about 4-tailing?

If he KNEW he had the capability to do such stuff by 4-tailing I believe he would have made the connection immediately when he saw the bridge and the crater and realized he had forgotten a large chunk of time again. It's Kishimoto's style to use flashbacks in moments of ephiphony much more than moments of nostalgia. He does understand those two events and makes the connection but he ONLY first realizes it now that Yamato is confronting him. If Naruto already knew about 4-tailing and what he had done to Jiraiya ... this incident of hurting ANOTHER important person by simply not heeding Jiriaya's warning would have been a misstep inspiring GUILT. Naruto has a reaction of SHOCKED REALIZATION instead.

Naruto's reactions just don't match up with a knowledge of going 4-tail before ... Naruto's quick ability to understand Kyuubitizing has a backlash (which he already started to know in the VOTE fight which he likely does remember) and that he has a demon inside that will hurt people (he has witnessed gaara so the visual isnt foreign) again if he uses it ... and deciding without a fight that Yamato is being senible ... does not prove Jiraiya told him what happened the last time.

Look at it this way ... you fall asleep on the computer keyboard and accidentally send the porn you were enjoying to yur boss. Ooops. But you don't know. So when you show up at work the next day and see a picture of the porno taped to your desk you are quite confused. But the boss soon realizes from your confusion that you hadn't a clue so doesn't say anything hoping it slides. Well the following night it happens again but this time you send the porn to your mother. She tapes it to your bedroom door while yur at work. When you see it again you will be very confused ... but your Dad is the Yamato type so he pulls you aside to tell you you emailed it to yur mom ... do you think you wouldn't fgure out you had e-mailed it to your boss too and agree if your Dad suggested you lay off the porn for awhile?

Naruto was probably kinda out of it (like this time) after he 4-tailed. But he is also unnervingly over trusting. Naruto listens when it comes to what he sees as gurulike wisdom from Jiraiya. Yes Naruto and Jiraiya bicker and whatnot but when Jiraiya gets serious, Naruto takes it all in without question or reserve. Only exception was when Naruto refused to stop pursuing Sasuke, which is one reason why that scene was so important. The only way it's "that jutsu" is if Jiraiya lied that he had used a special Jutsu to cause the damage. But I find this unlikely - Jiraiya isn't the lying type - it is more likely a half truth ...

WTF did Jiraiya DO to get Naruto to 4-tail? Feel him up?

So far it's only happened when he was pissed (when he was upset a friend/ally died or the betrayal) and it hasn't happened in the past when Jiraiya insulted just Naruto's skills. Maybe he brought up Sasuke or something else delicate to Naruto. I agree that it does seem to sprout quicker than it did ... but it still seems to take a lot of emotional uphevel to reach the higher tail counts. You'd think being thrown off a cliff might do it - but no, that just helps him tap into the power while staying in control. So what could Jiraiya have said?

I don't think 4-tails is "that jutsu" although "that jutsu" might tap into so much red chakra that it acts as a catalyst for transition into a 4-tail state ...I don't think the purpose of "that jutsu" is to multi-tail ... just that multitailing in a negative side effect of the amount of chakra used up for "that jutsu" Otherwise "that jutsu" wouldn't be banned but it is BECAUSE Jiraiya saw what happens to Naruto when he uses it. Jiraiya didn't know "that jutsu" would have that effect on Naruto until Naruto was taught it, used it and went 4-tail as a side effect. Jiraiya couldn't know what would happen until it happened - and by then his life was in danger. Once he stopped Naruto, it can be assumed he would have promptly banned "that jutsu" and Naruto hasn't used it since."

That jutsu" is forbidden for SOME reason. I think even if it isn't due to a tailing effect on Naruto, It was probably used only once by Naruto and when all hell broke loose it was promptly banded by Jiraiya. So Jiraiya does NOT think Naruto will resort to it. Remember that its not like Tsunade or Jiraiya expected Orochimaru to show up along with "sasori's spy" and tempt Naruto to Kyuubitize at all. And they did send Yamato along whom it sounds like might be the only person not including Sannin who can somehow stop a Multitailed Kyuubi.

Origionally Quoted by Syntaxis:

Basically Jiraiya was saying: Don't go KN4 ok? If you feel annoyed don't go
KN4. Also, don't use KN4. That makes no sense.

Don't go KN4 ok? If you feel annoyed don't go KN4. Also, don't use that
leet jutsu. That makes more sense.

It is also possible that the "that jutsu" conversation can be broken into two separate prohibitions anyway 1- Don't loose yur temper and loose control and 2- Don't use that Jutsu. There is no indication the two prohibitions are related.

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Jutsu does technically just mean technique but in the Narutoverse the word is not thrown around so flipantly. Kishimoto could be tricking us by using the word jutsu for this but he's never done that with any terminology before. I like the idea but it just doesn't see very Kishimoto to me. He doesn't use twists on words ... he only uses words to conect to legends.

Originally Posted by Criminal:

Kill one of the greatest Hokages ever and you still dont get any respect......damn.

LOL. So true. What does a guy have to do? Experimenting on hundreds of people doesn't do it. Killing a world leader? Posh. Even posessing bodies to stay alive forever is just seen as a quirk. I guess the only way to be feared is to kill your whole family except your brother who then you brainwash into becoming your family's avenger. Too bad there aren't enough genius clains to go around.

Orochimaru would make a bad horror film villian. He just doesn't have the ick factor or ability to create a suspenseful atmosphere. One of the freakiest villians in film was Robert Michum's minister in Night of the Hunter. He's a normal man (other than the love/hate tattooed on his hands and his homicidal tendencies) but he stalks thses two kids through the south and every time you hear him whistle your blood boils.

Orochimaru isn't like that ... he is a villian of action who spends little time between attacks to build up dread. That said, Orochimaru is a good villian for an anime like Naruto. It is not supposed to be Sin City or Hitchcock. Gaara was more the pitiable psycho with the faulty mindset ... Orochimaru is crazy for sure but his problem is more about his goals. He seeks chaos (not validation) and wishes to prolong his life so he can enjoy that chaos for as long as possible. Orochimaru (like Voldemort and many other classic villians) is creepy because his villiany is for entertainment purposes. He's like the student who pours water into his ant farm. He isn't doing evil because he is mistakenly looking for greater purpose (e.g. Bleach's Aizen) or to test himself (like Itachi) but because when things are peaceful he's bored. His skills are sometimes predictably mundane (we got he's snakelike ... but what else can he do?) but he jump starts the plot better than anyone else - his character literally thrives by altering the plot - which is really what villians are for.

Just as a side note. The brilliance of Kishimoto is the varied types of villians he presents. One isn't better written than the next, just a different manifestation of evil. The secondary evil minions can be weak to say the least (and I'm not going to start with fillers and their apparent cookie cutter conveyor belt of token mimics of previous foes) but our main guys are diverse in skills, personalities, motivations, and psychoness. For example, unlike Orochimaru, the villian of action, Akatsuki specializes in sneaking, spying and waiting for the pieces to fall in predetermined places. Its the difference between a card counter who just waits for the opportune moment to bet big and the guy who can memorize where cards are in the deck and can manuver them so the dealer busts most of the time. And then you have the Gaaras (messed up past with an inner demon), the Hakus (messed up past with crappy loyalties), and the Kabutos (who the f**k knows but he keeps me guessing) to name the most used varieties ...

And all his villians have one other thing that makes them great - room to grow.
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Orochimaru didn't know Naruto would be there (he thought it would be Sasori) but he is too good thinking on his feet to not have a plan. His taunting is too controlled - much how it was against Sasuke during the chunin arc. he's doing something and it's not just being a smartass.

If he somehow can get close enough (which isn't a certainty), he can do the 5-point seal ... but I think he'll whip something else out. Jiraiya was able to analyse the situation of the seal but only after spending much time with Naruto and being partically mowed down by the 4-tail state. Orochimaru is sharp but I don't know if he can figure out it's weakening and hurts Naruto before seeing Naruto covered in his own blood .... I think he is taunting naruto precisely because he HASNT figured this out yet but is trying too - and the only way to gauge Naruto's powers, control and current limit is to force Naruto into going to the edge of his abilities ....

Naruto doesn't feel he needs to compete with Sasuke in the way he used to but he definitely feels a need to be stronger ... because that is the only way to save Sasuke. If Orochimaru is correct about their power difference then that means Naruto is farther from his goals - which is guarenteed to get to Naruto's emotions.

What other motivations might Orochimaru have?

Many think he is the 8-tailed Bijuu. Quite possibe but if Orochimaru were a Bijuu why in gods name would he want to recreate a person (the Shodai with Yamato) who could potentially control him?

The only way I can see it working at all is if the Bijuu instead was sealed or bound to Orochimaru's soul instead of his body ... and we just didn't see it cuz Sarotobi didn't get a chance to pull out enough of his soul! Perhaps, the further/longer he is away from his true body, the more his Bijuu takes control over Oro's soul, the reason why he's become nastier as time progressed. I know this is a larger leap, but maybe Bijuus all somehow influence their Jinchuuriki and how they warp them depends on where/how the sealing takes place. This might explain why he is so innately evil - it could be that like how Gaara was being warped mentally by Shukaku and how Naruto's chakra flow binds with Kyuubi's, Orochimaru's SOUL could've been likewise warped by HIS Bijuu, which unfortunately made Orochimaru just as twisted as his Bijuu.

Furthermore, Akatsuki seems a lot more Anti-Orochimaru because he deserted than Orochimaru seems Anti-Akatsuki. He wanted to kill Sasori because of the spying (and perhaps to protect Kabuto) not because they are full out enemies and he wants to stall Akasuki's plans; he just doesn't want them mettling with his own plans.

Origionally posted by Ifurita's Fan

Tsunade, Jiraiya and Orochimaru are from a japanese legend called The Gallant
Jiraiya... go google it... you'll see it actually exists. Jiraiya and Tsunade (yes.. she's a slug/snail magician in that too) get married and have Orochimaru. Anyway.. Orochi is a 8 tailed serpent that can control the rain... his element is the wind. In his tail was hidden the gras cutting sword... or more properly The Kusanagi sword. (not The Kusanagi... Kusanagi just means cutting grass it's not a name like Excaliber... it's more like the appealation of The singing sword. ) Anyway... The Orochi was killed when the Kusanagi sword (which gave it power over the storms) was broken and taken out of it's tail, but it was later mended don't know how)

Me... I think this is the deal... Oro is NOT a jinshuuriki in my opinion. Here's why.

1. Jinchuuriki must have the demon's sealed in them when they are very young... before their chakra paths form. Newborn is best. Adults die if the demons are sealed in them... Thats the rule

2. The third doesn't seem the type to tollerate that happening on his watch

3. If Oro had that sort of power at his disposal when he was a kid... along with his intellect... there'd be no way Tsunade or Jiraiya could have kept up with him... but they did. Therefore... he's not a jinchuuriki when he was younger.

In other words... too many reasons why he couldn't be one. Now that said... I think he's got access to part of the power of the orochi. Specifically here's what I think
happened.

1. He was tasked (while he was in the Akatsuki) with the recovery of the 8 tails... and it's sealing into something. He did it... but then left because he coveted that power.

2. He sealed the Orochi into the kusanagi sword (just like how Shukaku was sealed into a teakettle.

3.He's been learning how to use a part of the biijuu's power... to give him the edge he's been displaying lately. The thing is.. jinshuuriki all become physically transformed by the power they have when they use lots of it. Oros never shown that happening.

I don't think he is trying to start a war (between who? Konoha and Grass country? He didn't know Naruto and Company would show up! He's planning as he goes ...) but I do think he is trying to gain as much information about Jinchuuriki and Naruto as he can ... and he knows he'll get the most knowledge out of this fight by seeing how far Naruto can control his bijuu and the only way to do that is to force him to go to his extreme ...
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We don't know and never will know if Orochimaru could've killed Sasori like he planned to because Sasori commited suicide instead of showing the full lengths of his power ... Based ONLY on the jutsus we've seen Orochimaru wins due to his insane durability. We saw where Sasori was vunerable BECAUSE he let himself be stabbed there. We have yet to see Orochimaru's weak spot (other than having his soul ripped from him but that's old news by now and not gonna have a reoccurance) ... so we have no proof other than personal whims (and plot no jutsu) that Orochimaru even has one.
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The Chapter 293 events weren't exactly an attack aimed at Orochimaru like in the previous 2 chapters ... this was JUST a transformation. That line of blood sailing upwards was just freaky! Orochimaru is just lucky that all naruto did during this most reason chakra blast was transform again .... Orochimaru is actually lucky that Naruto loses his mind in 4-tail state cuz I don't think even Oro could handle it if Naruto wanted to only aim all this new power at him too ....And you Naruto is powerful when Orochimaru is impressed ... and having fun!

Firstly, If Orochimaru is injured so much that he can't just whip out another skin, he'll just have to suffer cuz he still can't transfer to Sasuke or another body for another 6 months. I think Orochimaru will be saved from the greatest harm solely because Naruto is no longer mentally in control and therefore he's just going to try to destroy everything, not just aim the attacks at Orochimaru. I am not saying 4-tail Naruto > Orochimaru - just that Orochimaru won't get the full brunt of the attack so we really won't know who's stronger.

Interest does not necessarily indicate being impressed but in Orochimaru's case I believe they go hand in hand. I don't think Orochimaru is ever interested unless he's impressed to atleast some degree. He doesn't necessarily need to be awed and wowed to be interested but if he isn't a little impressed then he just sees them as experiments, instruments in his plans or objects you don't even bother to fight. A snake plays with mice but never ducks down from one ...The difference is how he treats Naruto during the Chunin exam and before he sees Naruto Rasengan (with interest enough to toss him aside and not consider worth any effort to attack or bother to defend against) ... verses how he treats Naruto after he sees Rasengan, once Naruto throws him with one tail (with interest enough to attack him while he's down and taunt him but still not worth defensive action) ... verses how he treats after the 4-tailing (with interest and impressed enough to actually defend himself and no longer bother to taunt) .

Originally Posted by Yassy:

Making no attempts to flee? his face was filled with fear while trying to run away from the upset Naruto.The reason why he didn't flee after seeing Naruto powering up, was to test him, and he did, and now he knows what he is in for.

Oro flinches but he never flees.

CHAPTER 291: 1-tail Naruto throws Oro 1/2 mile by his face which proceeds to rip off and Orochimaru COMES BACK to taunt some more.

CHAPTER 292: After 3-tail Naruto destroys the bridge, Naruto (accidentally) punches Orochimaru with his chakra claw all that way into the forest when he is trying to grab onto something so he doesn't fall into the void. Naruto immediately follows Orochimaru into the forest where he aims the explosion at Orochimaru that causes Orochimaru to lose an arm. A wounded orochimaru leaps aside onto a tree branch but DOES NOT FLEE. Instead, Orochimaru stands over Naruto, continuing to taunt Naruto as he sheads his wounded body for a new unharmed one.

CHAPTER 293: Orochimaru is alarmed by the 4th tail appearing but DOES NOT FLEE when he sees Naruto belly over in pain. Soon Naruto is sheading his own skin and has the blood line reaching up into the sky. Orochimaru watches all this in concerned curiosity ("This feeling is different than before") from his tree branch while still standing in his old skin. Then Naruto yells out in pain ... and the blood line collapses. The energy of this explodes outwards as Naruto transforms. Orochimaru only has time to prostrate himself on the ground with his tongue sticking out. "How interesting ... really ... this child ..." This time he is finally NOT taunting Naruto.

Originally Posted by Yassy:

I hope your not expecting Orochimaru to run away after that punch alone, because I for sure did not. He came back indeed, he seems to be intrested in how Naruto has grown. Orochimaru was not in the forest at that time, Naruto was still facing him, after the explosion happened Orochimaru fell back, Naruto followed. Later on, Orochomaru leaning on a tree and stares at Naruto, you say he dosen't flee, I say he CANT flee.Again, Orochimaru CANNOT flee, hes in no position to run away. That would make this series very boring, I like it when the evil villans are the strongest.

I didn't expect him to flee after the 1-tail punch but he did have the opportunity if he wanted to. But why would he?

Oro did NOT have the time to flee after the 3-tail chakra claw smack which was what sent him flying - check out the same movement lines that were around the flying Kabuto earlier - into the forest (where the 2nd explosion DOES indeed take place as you can see from Sai's bird). If he did have the time, I don't think Orochimaru would have left this fight but he didn't so it doesn't matter.

But, he COULD have left (if he was really fearful) while Naruto transformed into the 4th tail (ample time) but chose not to. This is the first time I think he MIGHT have made a foolish mistake. He had all the signs that Naruto was truely changing this time and yet he let his curiosity get the better of him. This isn't to say Orochimaru's no match for 4-tail Naruto ... I believe it would be quite an even fight .... just that the smart thing would have been to escape when he could (maybe kidnapping Yamato in the process!) without risking anything. I agree it would have been boring and uncharacteristic is he did flee ... but it would have been smart.

And he could have. If he was physically unable to leave, it would have done quite the opposite of what you want and made him look weak indeed. But he's strong enough to have the opportunity to leave and he's overconfident enough to not take it so he won't flee and he will now be stuck in the middle of ground zero.

Orochimaru was never in a situation where his body was so wounded that he had to quickly replace it (and was able to fix the problem by replacing it)before. He's always had a clone in place or soulless arms. This is a big indicator of Naruto's growth. Neither Sasuke nor Naruto came even close to forcing Orochimaru to repair himself during the chunin arc. That fight was 100% always controlled by Orochimaru. This fight involves Orochimaru testing and taunting Naruto, certainly, but Naruto isn't easily just playing into his hands. He is surprising the Sannin at least. That said, Orochimaru hasn't yet even bothered to go on the offensive against him so you know he isn't just mocking Naruto when he underestimates Naruto's strength and when he compares it to a supposedly more powerful Sasuke. He really doesn't think he's a real threat until he 4-tails.

I don't understand some peoples logic. You can't have it both ways. Either a strike counts no matter (so arms missing even if easily replaced count) what or it only counts if it has any lasting effect. I go for the latter choice, which mean they are equal at 0-0. In Naruto a jutsu is only as effective as how much it inhibits the opponent, either by being defensive against an attack or by by taking an opponent down so they can't be offensive:

Chapter 291 - Orochimaru has his face ripped off by KN1 so it would seem Naruto 1 - Orochimaru 0 but Orochimaru has his skin jutsu which means there is no lasting damage (it probably hurt but had no long term effect) so its really 0-0

Then we have the ripped arm of 292, but again doesn't matter in the long run.

Chapter 294 - NK4 has his face punched out by Orochimaru so it would seem Orochimaru 1 - Naruto 0 but Naruto body is composed of chakra/blood which means there is no lasting damage (it probably hurt but had no long term effects) so its really 0-0 Orochimaru is split in half but is composed of snakes so doesn't matter ...Seems to me that Naruto has created more damage (although none of it was effective) than Orochimaru, who's one offensive strike also landed but had as much of an effect on Naruto's continued fighting ability as any of Naruto's attempts on Orochimaru. Nothing has really worked on either of them. Neither has been slowed up in their fighting one bit by any of the others attacks so far .... Everything has been countered somehow.

Chapter 295: Chakra fireball spit at Orochimaru but countered with Triple Rashoumon. Doesn't work and Orochimaru takes a hit although his life is spared due to his defense. Naruto 1- Orochimaru 0. He's hurt but no perminant damage (back to 0-0) cuz Orochimaru immediately is able to send his Kuranagi Sword up out of the rubble and into NK4. Pushes NK4 back across the bridge but we see no actual damage and chapter ends in the middle of the strike. So as it stands, it's a potential Naruto 0 - Orochimaru 1 but we have yet to get a close up to really analyze the hurt and we have yet to see if there was a counter-jutsu in place ....

But Chapter 296 proves 4-tails was not injured by the sword. The score is back to 0-0. And a good thing too because now other factors are intervening. This battle never has a conclusive winner because -

A) We have no clue what Orochimaru could do further but it doesn't look like much. His big strike (the Sword of Kusanagi) did nothing and now his body is rejecting him.

B) Looks like 4-tails could easily continue fighting but how would he have crossed the void this time? He's distracted by a charging Sakura and then tranquilized by Yamato's Shodai technique. So if the fight continued, Naruto might not even be conscious after this experience, and if he is, he will be back to normal and without his tails Naruto has no chance against Orochimaru (even if he's spent).

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I think the sheading skin thing at the end of Chapter 292 is a jutsu of sorts because he replaces it so fast with just his hand ... maybe a bloodline limit (snake skin along with the other snakelike qualities) or side effect of the possession jutsu? He certainly repairs his face as quickly as Gaara is able to repair his sand covering. I wonder if the skin jutsu requires a lot of chakra like Gaara's does?

It is just no jutsu we know of .... but it could very well be a bloodlimit associated with snakes (Kimimaru could modify his bones - why can't Orochimaru continuously shead his skin) , a component and long term side effect of the possession jutsu, or just some unknown jutsu he's picked up and we just didn't get to see the handsigns cuz he did them inside the discarded skin.

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''If i get hit by that i'll die no doubt.'' Orochimaru wasn't overestimating or underestimating anything for once. He simply realized the danger of the Chakra Spitball and countered as best as he could, which was enough to save his life but not enough to prevent the blow completely. And then he uses the Sword ... a gutsy and inconsistant move (and one that proves how serious he is now) considering he didn't want to kill Naruto in the first place ...

Logical reasons why Orochimaru still has the Sword of Kusanagi:

• How many magical swords do you think exist in Orochimaru's stomach. Most likely just one, the Kusanagi. If it was an entirely different blade, I think we would've been told. What we see now is a very long katana coming out of a snake, which is coming out of Orochimaru's mouth. We've seen this done twice before, and knew it was the Kusanagi no Tsurigi. It's best to assume that what we saw in the most recent chapter is also the Kusanagi no Tsurigi--just with a new, or previously unused ability.
• In the Manga (anime is different) Enma removes the sword from Sarutobi saying "the least I can do is remove this" meaning the sword from Sarutobi as a last respect to the man who lived his entire life the ninja way. He soon after clearly disappears and it's unclear what happened to the sword. When Orochimaru then shows up with a similar sword in the Tsunade Arc it can be assumed he somehow got the Kusanagi back.
• The sword variations could just be Kishimoto's stylistic changes. He also varies on the sword's look within fight sequences.

Origionally posted by Ifurita Fan:

Every time the Kusanagi Sword is used... Oro ends up the worse for it in the end. By the way... the Kusanagi sword is it's proper name... not just Kusanagi... which means cut grass. The Kusanagi Sword therefore means "grass cutting sword"Okay... back to the meat of the post. Each time Oro has used it in the manga... he ends up getting hurt. When he used it on Sarutobi... he impaled him on it... but had the arms of his soul cut out of him by the god of death. When he used it on Tsunade... he had the crap kiched out of him by her.It seems that each time he uses the weapon... he ends up getting messed up. So... in this issue 295... we see Naruto hit with the blade... and in one pannel what looks like a splash on the surface of the chakra armor... or maybe blood... still not sure which. But... we do not see the sword do what we've always seen it do previously... cut through it's target and exit the other side. Naruto got hit... and may have been wounded through the armour of blood (None of which we know for sure... so I'm playing it safe and saying it's a wound... but neither a critical hit like an impalment... or a total miss like it just hit the surface of the armor and did nothing)And just to clarify that... an impalment means the blade has to enter the physical body to a significant degree and stay lodged there. Just sticking in the blood armor doesn't count... we're talking stuck in Naruto here. That all said... Is it possible that Oro is about to get messed up again because he used the Kusanagi sword? The final panels showed what looks like Naruto's hand being on the blade... could Oro have miscalculated by leaving the sword exposed this long, giving Naruto a chance to grab it... and potentially try and break it? This is the third time the blade has been used... If Oro gonna fall victim to the law of things coming in threes?Is the Kusanagi sword cursed?

I really like this theory and think it will turn out that each one of the Sannin inherited or possesses at some point a "cursed" item. Orochimaru's is the sword, Tsunade's was the necklace she passed on to Naruto, and Jiraiya's remains a mystery.

I think Anbu and Ninja rank are totally separate ... Anbu accepts into its ranks anyone, no matter ninja level, that it finds will be an asset. Kakashi was already a Jounin when he became an Anbu member (I wonder why he's not anymore) but I have a feeling once you become an Anbu member, you don't exactly enter chunin exams, etc. So someone like Sai, who grew up within Anbu, mightn't have a ninja rank at all.

That said, Sai is probably at lower Jounin level (he is described as the greatest of his generation and it seems he did capture Yamato fairly easily) but cuz he's in Anbu, this kinda is arbitrary.
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If this was a bell test by Kakashi, which it wasn't, the results of the fight would be the similar but who knows if they would have failed or not? It's parallel to what happened in the first bell test, but if Sai got a bell, things might have gone differently ...Remember during the 1st bell test, Kakashi taunted Naruto so he started before Kakashi said to begin. Yamato just waited to motivate Naruto until the training had started. Naruto, who started by using teamwork this time (Yamato did say one would go in while the other backed up the first), still DID go in for the kill before Sai or Sakura had a chance to participate. This behavior ultimately resulted in Naruto again being bound and removed from the remaining fight, although by a different culprit.Sai forcibly removed Naruto from the fight because he decided Naruto would just be a burden. This was Sasuke's attitude if you remember way back, although Sasuke wouldn't have binded Naruto but let Naruto continue to get himself in more trouble because THEN Naruto is an even greater distraction... Like Sai did, Sasuke just let Naruto be a distraction 'til he could hopefully take Kakashi by surprise. Sai at least openly admitted that he planned to use Naruto in this way ... Sasuke was in denial at that point that Naruto was helpful in any way.

Now I think Sai wouldn't have gotten a bell from Kakashi. This would mean once again they would still have ended up with Naruto tied to the post and the other two eating and getting the teamwork speech from Kakashi. But this speech would likely first go over Sai's head ... and it would this time be Sakura who initiated the feeding of Naruto for the pass. Sai wouldn't feed Naruto just cuz Sakura does, and might even want to fight with Naruto still tied up, but Sakura could probably force Sai into it ...But lets say Sai completed the mission and as this was a bell test, then he'd have gotten a bell ... but he'd only get one for himself and we know thats an instant fail for Kakashi. Would Kakashi still have given them a second shot and the team speech if Sai got a bell? And if it still ended up with Naruto tied to the post and the other two eating, getting the teamwork speech from Kakashi et al, why would Sai feed Naruto if he sees his mission as completed? The fact that Sai can justify his complacency toward the other two with his success just helps fuel the non-teamwork attitude and his faulty belief in the mission over companionship. A success would give Sai the sway needed to veto any decision by the other two toward teamwork from that point forward ... This would seriously undermine a pass by Kakashi, much like how it is undermining smooth cooperation currently among Team Kakashi.

Originally Posted by Devilguy:

The one who screwed up was Naruto. Sai was pissed off and taught him a lesson

Yeah, Naruto did screw up and in typical fashion, lost track of the stratergy when taunted ... I am curious to know if the henge clone was a team plan or if Naruto was just leaving Sai out of it in the first place. Either way, Naruto was the one who was going for the kill BY HIMSELF after that taunt.

Yet, that is still no excuse for Sai attacking a companion. What treatment did he expect after the way he's pissed off Naruto so far? That Naruto would suddenly be warm towards him? Attacking Naruto, then telling Naruto the best way to accomplish the mission was to tie up and leave Naruto out of it AND THEN bringing up the sensitive Sasuke issue again - what was Sai hoping would happen? That Naruto would accept his way of thinking just like that? Sai needs to gain some perspective along with the teamwork gene. I wonder how Kakashi would/will handle him? Normally, his behavior would totally undermine teamwork at all but thank goodness Naruto is so determined that in his uniquely honest fashion he will continue to work with someone he hates. "I will do anything to save that friend ... even work with you." - It's so classic Naruto to say something unexpected and twisted like that. Loved it! Good to see Naruto taking the higher ground ... and it also makes total sense that Sai remained clueless to the emotions motivating this determination. Well done Kishimoto!

Originally Posted by Devilguy:

It was much better to teach Naruto such a lesson during the training session than letting him behave as he always does and expect that he miraculously doesn't repeat the same error again during the real mission.

But since when has it been Sai's place to teach Naruto anything? If Yamato scolded him it would be one thing but Sai isn't in a position to be so condesending, even if he did accomplish the mission. You think Naruto didn't notice he screwed up? It might even be ok if Sai just lectured Naruto for the mistake after the mission; it's not ok to force a person out of the mission (by tying them up) for a mistake and then still lecture them about it. That's overkill and arrogance.

Why did Naruto deserve to be tied up? Cuz he attacked on his own? Cuz he gave the clone thing away with the Rasengan? or cuz of his exclusion of Sai as a teammate the previous chapter?

Saying that Sai can suddenly scold Naruto cuz he accomplished the mission is like saying a student who gets an A on a test has the right to mock a student who recieves a C. Not cool. And I agree scolding Naruto doesn't work but isn't that exactly what Sai tries to do after the mission when explaining his actions? To be completely honest, if I was in Sai's shoes I'd be annoyed with Naruto and worried about teaming up with him too, yet still I see myself confronting the issue more overtly than an attack mid training ... . If Sai feels Naruto is weak, he should offer help (even if he and we know Naruto wouldn't accept it) not criticism.

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Binding Naruto was a far lesser crime than leaving Sakura to die and cause Naruto no harm .... but he still DID use a jutsu on a teammate ... which is a controversal move even in the best circumstances. Plot wise it was fantastic but I had just as big a problem with Sasuke and Naruto using jutsu's against eachother during the rooftop fight .... and you saw where that led .... You are supposed to work with teammates, not around them.

If Naruto purposely downed the bridge to keep his teammates safe from himself, I would say Naruto is MORE blame worthy when it comes to Sakura than if he did it completely by accident in a moment of Kyuubitized rage. It was a mistake; yet with this new motive, it was also poor planning, not just a fluke of the chaos. Sai did a much worse thing because of his CLEAR DECISION to ignore Sakura:

Naruto's motivation choices:

A) Destroy bridge to protect teammates from 4-tail form

B) KILL KABUTO, oops - whatever, KILL OROCHIMARU, KILL OROCHIMARU

Sai's motivation choices:

A) Ignore Sakura to complete MISSION cuz My duty over worthless Teammate

B) Sakura dying is just deserts for punching me, why should I care?

On face value it looks like Sai is in the better position because unlike Naruto who actually harmed Sakura (accident or not) and did it in the act of trying to kill someone, Sai just let he fall for the sake of his duty. But Naruto either has the insanity plea or was trying to protect her ... he never made the CHOICE to harm her. Sai CHOOSE to ignore her and therefore, is much more accountable for his actions.

Originally Posted by Oknytt

Not that I think Sai really cares, but he's remains loyal to Danzou while betraying Konoha. He's now in the same group of traitors as Konohas White Fang, betraying the villages higher rules. Choosing comrades over a 'higher cause', you could say he is following Narutos way of the ninja.

The white fang chose to save his companions over the mission ... Sai is ignoring one mission to instate another, and putting his companions at risk by doing so.

Firstly, I think you have to look at the motivations behind these actions. Yes, like Sakumo, Sai is refusing to follow through with a mission due to extrenuating circumatances dealing with where his true loyalty lies ... but Sakumo's disobedience was to save his companion's lives while Sai's is to (or so it seems) collaborate with a known enemy for the sake of a former mentor. I do not think these reasons are at all equally rightous. Sakumo was fighting directly against what was expected of him as a Shinobi for the sake of being a better person while Sai is being a worse person by allowing himself to become a tool and doing exactly what is expected of a Shinobi.

Secondly, you are ignoring that with the White Fang no third party was involved. The White Fang also betrayed the Konoha elite but he did not betray or endanger the lives of any teammates he was with at the time. And it doesn't really matter how powerful Danzou is ... what Sai does is still underhanded. We might make the same decision as he would but he still treats his teammates like crap. Let me see if I can put this in a modern setting.

Imagine you are living on the streets, by yourself, when one day you happen to meet a guy in a business suit. Turns out he's a CEO, and he saw something he liked and trained you to be a genius businessman. You as his right hand man for years. He is like a father to you.

But then his company is bought out from under him. You stay with the company because you have no other options and he tells you to. Now you are working for a new CEO, who's doing a good job (maybe even a better job than the former CEO) but you have no personal relationship with her. You are loyal to the company but you owe her nothing.

The old CEO still has a lot of sway with the executive board and is able to convince them to add you to a team for a specific project, and you're new fellow employees are all personal appointments of the new CEO. Then you find out you were added to this project so the Old CEO can make a deal with a competative company (possibly a merge because in the OLD CEO's opinion, the company is floundering ... although you can't be sure this is true) behind the new CEO's back.

What do you do? The old CEO is like your father, you owe him everything. But he isn't your boss anymore and your new teammates are depending on you. Now comes the moment of truth. Do you do whatever task your father figure has asked of you if it means one of your fellow workers will then loose her job in the process?

It's understandable that your loyalties lie with the old CEO who made you who you are, and if you do do him the favor. BUT it DOES NOT make you unblameable if you don't ALSO try to help out the innocent party who will otherwise loose everything just by the unfortunate luck of also being on your team.

Sakumo chose to not finish the project (although it most probably hurt the company a lot) so that way none of his teammates would loose their jobs in the process of it's completion. Sai chose to work on the bigger merger (which might help the company in the long run ... or might ruin the company for whatever reason the OLD CEO wishes) instead of the project, not caring what happened to his fellow coworkers at all.

People are to blame when they let the status quo and expectations stand as is if they are faulty notitions. Just because a Shinobi is expected to be a tool doesn't give people the right to treat others that way or to allow themselves to be manipulated as such. It is understandable that it happens to those that are lonely (as we know Loneliness is the root of all evil in Naruto) but it doesn't mean that it ok that it happens and shouldn't be fought against.

And why is Sakura is not to blame?

... she was just in the wrong place and didn't have time to react.

A)Sakura was in shock cuz this is the first time she's seen her narizzle go to the shizzle (remember she's only seen the 0-tail state twice during the chunin exam ... otherwise she's been knocked out or fighting elsewhere)

B) It happened really fast. It wasn't like she was just gawking at a long fight before her. Kabuto charged one second and was flung to kingdom come the next. Even if she was prepared she didn't have enough time to duck.

C) Ninjas far older and wiser (Kabuto, Yamato, and even Orochimaru) were surprised when it happened ... and you really expected Sakura to be prepared?

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Originally Posted by Odlam:

What if Sai's mission has nothing to do with Naruto or attacking Orochimaru, but is actually him delivering a message to Orochimaru from Danzou about "future negotiations" between the two or something like that

I do like this theory - a lot. Works well with the fact that Sai was added to Kakashi's team (the most likely team to met Orochimaru) until the opportunity for his mission arose (instead of just being added for this particular mission when they didn't know they would met Orochimaru and it might be easier to get to Kyuubi without Kakashi around.) not for a specific amount of time.

BUT I PREFER ....

Could Sai's mission from Danzou be a suicide mission? Could his purpose from the start be to give up his life in front of a bezerk KN so that Tsunade (in the face of this scandal) is forced to choose between Naruto's freedom and the village's safety? This would explain why he was taught to have no emotions, not connect with his comrades, why he would care what happened to the rest of the team including not go to save Sakura, why his mission wouldn't start until Naruto Kyuubitized and why Sai would immediately head that way with no regard for the obvious dangers.

I don't think Sai will actually die (he still needs to become Naruto's bitch ) ... either Naruto will gain his senses in time or Yamato will intervene ... but I still think this could be Sai's purpose and that he will just fail to complete this mission.

Originally Posted by Windy:

Sounds awesome, but I don't think so. Danzou seems to have a lot of appreciation to Sai's skills, and if that was the mission, he would've sent someone he wouldn't care to lose...

I see your point but I find this would be the exact reason he would send him. Danzou is a war monger and probably sees missions like these as the greatest honors available. I think the way Danzou treats Sai is much like the way the heads of modern terrorist organizations behave towards promising children they turn into suicide bombers.

298 Update: Damn. I was pushing for the suicide mission but I didn't want it to happen this way! As much as I feel it is unlikely that Sai is dead I would absolutely love it if for once Kishimoto broke the mold and had us instead have Naruto influenced by Sai postmotum by causing Naruto guilt and regret AND furthering the reality that not everyone can nor deserves to be saved by him. The best plot twist I can imagine is a plan by Orochimaru/Kabuto to kill Sai to use as the corpse for the dead soul technique of Kabuto's - hoping to trap Yamato who they don't know is a clone. The intention is to obtain Yamato and then revive Sai via Edo Tensei or something similar. But once they realize Yamato is really Yamato's Bunshin the plan will backfire and Orochimaru and Kabuto will unhappily flee ... leaving poor, used, abused Sai behind to be found by the rest of Team Kakashi.

Sai " I can't get close " (because of shockwaves Naruto is emitting) ... He could wish to get close for any number of reasons ... to get to Naruto (to kill, help, investigate), to get to Orochimaru (to kill, help, investigate), even to get in the way via the suicide mission theory. He could be talking in the sense of stratergy (I can't get close cuz I'll get hurt) or in the sense of physically (I want to get close but everytime I approach I get blasted back) ....

Chapter 296 Update:

By now we have had enough hints not to trust that specific smile of Sai's.... from that one frame we can't know what Sai is really up to and I have always advocated the Sai suicide mission theory although I thought he was gonna throw himself in front of Naruto instead of attack Orochimaru.

Danzou warhawk stuff was used to throw us off the scent of his real plans ... having more to do with the Jinchuuriki and less to do with distabilizing the Konoha government. Danzou might be willing (although I still prefer the idea that Sai is faking it right now) to form an alliance with Orochimaru to take down Akatsuki - not because of their attacks on Naruto but because of whatever ultimate plans the organization has.

Danzou probably realized that Kakashi's team was the most likely Konoha team to meet up with Orochimaru because he knew they would eventually be sent after Sasuke if any info was found. That's at least my guess why Danzou put him on the team indefinitely until the secret mission was accomplished, not just this specific bridge mission.

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Sai's book I believe can be interpreted many ways but the two that seemed most logical to me (I do believe Sai is the one transforming not the opponent) were either:

A) Abstract intepretation - Sai does not actually take the clothing and weapons of his opponents but the drawings symbolize the emotional journey he's been on and the weight and experience he's gained by facing each opponent.

or B) Sai (and his brother?) actually does physically transform with each opponent he faces. If this is true we have an interesting parallel to Orochimaru's immortality body transfer technique. It is true that Sai only takes the clothing and weaponry of each new user .... but what if this is some upgraded version of the technique? And what if it also as an upgrade includes the ability to transfer much more frequently than every three years ... ie, whenever one battles. This also could partically explain Orochimaru's interest in keeping Sai if Danzou's note left any indication Sai had this ability.